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08-05-2009, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher 
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Correct me if I'm wrong Mini, but wasn't it you who said that bitches don't regurgitate for their pups ? I did a google search, and I have to admit, I couldn't find any scientific evidence for this, except for a posting on Dogsey - which was from you, explaining to someone that bitches DO regurgitate !!
I am very confused here too !!
(I've probably got it wrong now
) but is also saying that it's still the case that dogs generally don't (and in the Mech studies wolves, all the adult ones, regurgitated lots).
Wys
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08-05-2009, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle
I have often heard of bitches regurgitating - but it always seems to be in situations where the dogs are 'working' stock. Usually kenneled - often without toys as stimulation etc.
All the bitches I have been involved with who have had litters have never exhibited this behaviour.
RE: Alphas in the wild....
If alphas are as rare as SE seems to be saying...how do packs cope.....If 2 lone omegas met in the wild would they start a pack and reproduce? Or would they wait as (in this theory) they are not programmed to do so?
Your next point about the 2 omegas is interesting too. Again, I am guessing, I don't know as a fact, but my belief is that 2 lone omegas just would not be able to survive away from a pack, so it is very unlikely that 2 lone omegas, 1 male 1 female, would live long enough to meet up, mate, rear young and form a pack. SE would be the best person to ask about this. I will do so when CR is back on line on Cry-Wolf. His internet is down apparently, so therefore SE is off line too.
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08-05-2009, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Wys : I went to the pub last night and living in a small rural village, many people who go in there own dogs. I asked a local who has labradors for shooting would he agree with me that bitches with pups frequently regurgitate for them given half a chance if breeders didn't at least try to stop them. He said yes of course, why.
I then asked a lady who used to have corgis, and she agreed. My friend, who has GSDs, agreed and a single bloke who comes from a farming family and has always had working collies agreed.
So here we are in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere, with a random collection of doggy people who all say that they are aware that female dogs will regurgitate for their pups ... not always, not a lot, some more than others, but the general concensus was that it happens frequently.
I'm confused here, because I believe you Wys, but I believe my friends too ... and I most certainly believe the evidence I have of my own eyes in non-wolfy breeds, as well as wolfy.
Wys
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I believe you too
but there will be some reasons for the discrepancy - environment, breed, whatever, if we could do more searching into it we'd find the answers.However I do believe dog bitches do sometimes regurgitate, as Mini mentioned - particulary if their milk is drying up, so I'm not saying (and wasn't saying previously) that it doesn't happen in bitches with pups, just that I've not seen it; and also that generally adult dogs don't do it (not in the same way the adult wolves do it)
Wys
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08-05-2009, 12:30 PM
I did a quick search and came up with the following - I know it's Wiki but there are references to follow up (I haven't had a chance to check them).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog
Some sources say that dogs differ from wolves and most other large canid species by the fact that they do not regurgitate food for their young, nor the young of other dogs in the same territory.[82] However, this difference was not observed in all domestic dogs. Regurgitating of food by the females for the young as well as care for the young by the males has been observed in domestic dogs, dingos as well as in other feral or semi-feral dogs. Regurgitating of food by the females and direct choosing of only one mate has been observed even in those semi-feral dogs of direct domestic dog ancestry. Also regurgitating of food by males has been observed in free-ranging domestic dogs.[85][87]
^ a b c d e f Coppinger, Ray (2001). Dogs: a Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution. New York: Scribner. ISBN 0684855305
<li id="cite_note-Pal-84">^ a b Pal SK (January 2005). "Parental care in free-ranging dogs, Canis familiaris". Applied Animal Behaviour Science 90 (1): 31–47. doi:10.1016/j.applanim.2004.08.002.
<li id="cite_note-86">^ Eberhard Trumler, Mit dem Hund auf du; Zum Verständnis seines Wesens und Verhaltens; 4. Auflage Januar 1996; R. Piper GmbH & Co. KG, München[/QUOTE]
Fascinating LS, thanks so much for these links - more reading for me over the weekend !! I will follow these up. When I did a quick google last night, I couldn't find much, but then I was rushing to get to the pub !!
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08-05-2009, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
Ok, now that this thread is going wey further than the original posters question lets add a little to the wolf alpha theory!
Firstly, I do believe that alphas are 'born', but largely because they are confident animals; timid alphas don't tend to exist. In this way you can see that the most confident personality tends be at the top. The same with any mammal society.
When a wolf pack gets too big, due to social pressures or resource limits there will then be dispersers (lone wolves). Wolves are social animals and for then safety comes in numbers but there are a lot of dispersers and this has been crucial to the success of the species. They will travel for huge distances in search of a mate or new pack that needs to expand. They have been tracked over great distances; for example Italian wolves have got as far as spain without being noticed in France.
Social pressures within wild packs can create very different behaviour. Aggressive behaviour is often seen in packs where they are under pressure from reduced rersources (prey, territory etc). In packs where the density of wolves is very low (Algonquin, Canada; Theberge)) the pressures are different and relatives will travel from pack to pack and interbreed, also these relatives have been known to visit neighboring packs and return to their own.
As for Alphas breeding, it does appear normal to have a breeding pair but it is not un-known for another female to breed as well. Unfortunately it appears that non of the wolves have ever read any text books, but the great thing about science is that it constantly evolves and what is a hard and fast fact today is disproved history tommorow. As nobel prize winning animal behaviourist Konrad Lorenz is reputed to have said: How could I have got it so wrong?
In a captive pack of wolves the pressures are greatly increased and you will often see signs of this (flesh wounds near the tale region on some animals) where animals would normaly disperse or live on the pack periphery. If the Alpha dies then there is not necessarily a replacement to be found within the pack which would back up the concept of the alpha being 'born' or simply having the right personality, if you prefer. There are several good examples of this, one being a captive pack in France where the 'alpha' was poisoned by a member of the public. This pack continued in a state of melt down for months until it was broken up into small units -before it functioned well.
While some wolf ancestry applies to dogs, much does not. Wolves (male and female) have a short breeding season, there is a hierarchy for breeding rights etc, but domestic animals (humans included) have no such constraints. Domestication has changed many of the patterns and survival needs.
Sorry but this is not true. Hybrid is a term that means the offspring of two animals or plants of different species OR varieties. Thus a wolf and a dog may be regarded as either the same species just different varieties (they can interbreed freely; so this is the best definition) or two different species in which case the same applies. When you buy an F1 hybrid tomato plant it is only a cross of varieties; not a cross between a cabbage and a tomato. Some dog breeders will deliberatly use the word 'hybrid' to advertise pups as it will bring a greater price than using the word 'cross'.
Good posting Wolfdog, except for the last paragraph ! The OED definition of hybrid is "the offspring of two plants or animals of different species or varieties". Fine, you might say, the dog and the wolf are the same species, but they are a different variety of that species. I think I would agree with this ... if it were not for the fact that when a dog and a wolf mate, they produce live, viable (fertile) young. This is where the term "hybrid" to describe a wolf cross falls down. It would be similar to my child being called a hybrid because I had mated with a Kalahari Bushman or a Masai Warrior ! The Kalahari Bushman and the Masai Warrior are exactly the same species as myself ... homo sapiens ... but we are of a different "variety" of homo sapiens. We have some very obvious and different racial differences, such as skin colour etc.
So, the difference between the wolf and the domestic dog could be described as purely racial, and certainly does not imply a hybridisation.
Over to you wolfdog !!
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08-05-2009, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Gnasher you are wrong yet again , I never said any such thing. Yet again you seem unable to grasp what has been said. Let me repeat what I posted for the third time ...
..can I make it any clearer ?
Ps, Gnasher I haven't addressed any of the other points you mention though I think Wolfdogowner has. There seems little point in trying to debate anything with you, your previous posts in this thread make the reason for this very clear.
I for one enjoy our debates, so please don't get all fluffy !! We very obviously have completely different views on virtually everything it would seem, but so what, we are both civilised human beings aren't we, so please don't get all grumpy. I am a weak and feeble woman, not bloody Einstein, frequently cock up, get the wrong end of the stick, miss the point, go off on a rant, but I ADORE dogs, especially my wolfy guys, and like any intelligent person, have made up my mind how I think the best way to feed, treat and raise my dogs is.
I have said this before and I will say it again ... I plough my own furrow in life, I am a maverick, always have been and always will be. I care not a jot what people think or say about me ... up to a point of course, I'm female after all !! ... and if I think something is wrong, even if God himself has said so, then I will continue to plough my own furrow.
I may have to do a complete volte face having followed up on all the links that have been supplied on this fascinated thread. If I change my mind, and decide that the whole theory of being alpha male and female to one's dogs is baloney and a heap of horse's poo poo, then I shall be big enough to say so.
Fair enough? Either way, please don't not talk to me, I love a good debate !
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08-05-2009, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
Sounds very wolflike...
My pups always ask me to regurgitate my lunch for them though...
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08-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Patch, your girl sounds lovely
Gnasher, I seriously doubt that Patch bred from her!
I am really interested in links to any research done on wild wolf packs - I dont think captive wolf packs really help us understand behaviour that much as it is such an unatural situation
and I totaly agree that the more is studied the more we will learn, for example chimps were thought to have an alpha that lead with aggression and power displays, but looking at more and more groups it has been found that some take the top position by being diplomatic and making lots of friends
So we need studies of many many packs over long periods of time to understand anything of the pack dynamic
One thing tho
I cannot see that only the alpha wolves mate - if that was the case then Darwins work would tell us that over time wolves would evolve more 'alpha' characteristics
Also it is a lot of work for the alpha pair to raise many many litters for only a tiny few to go on to breed, nature isnt wastful
Good point you make about Darwin, Ben. However, if what SE says is true, and I personally believe it, alphas are created in the womb by a unique set of circumstances coming together. So when alpha male and alpha female breed, their offspring do not inherit the "alpha" gene, for want of a better phrase. It all depends on the position in the womb over a certain crucial amount of time at a certain point in time, plus doubtless other things which I can't remember. Again, this is something I can ask SE on Cry Wolf when he is back on line.
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08-05-2009, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
Interesting point; firstly some alpha females have been observed having a quickie with another rank while the alpha male isn't looking... then bringing up the pups is a communal affair with a non breeding female taking charge of the pups for mum while she goes out. Uncles and last years juveniles will also have a large input to the raising of the pups in their first few months.
Your point about chimps is also very valuable- there are many different ways of holding a social group together.
True, I saw this on that tv programme I watched the other night.
Indeed, there are different ways of holding a social group together, but to compare chimps and wolves in this way is not valid surely ?
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08-05-2009, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
I think Mini was saying that she did say bitches might regurgitate for their pups, rather than that they did not?
(I've probably got it wrong now
) but is also saying that it's still the case that dogs generally don't (and in the Mech studies wolves, all the adult ones, regurgitated lots).
Wys
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