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Location: Fife, UK
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06-12-2010, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer 
That is probably quite stressful for the dogs!
In schutzand isn't it often advised to calm the dog (variety of methods) after drive work to reduce stress?
Reward based emthods always start from the basis of negative punishment state anyway (no reward) which acts as a mild stressor.
Adam
IMO Sch is based on positive reinforcement as the sleeve is a reward, its a big game! They love it. They are encouraged to get excited over the sleeve to start with and progress from there.........and the rest is tracking which is a plesure to many dogs then the rest is obedience work.
What makes you think positive reinforcement always starts with a negative?
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Location: UK
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06-12-2010, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann
No, its excitement and exercise.
IMO Sch is based on positive reinforcement as the sleeve is a reward, its a big game! They love it. They are encouraged to get excited over the sleeve to start with.........and the rest is tracking which is a pleseure to many dogs then the rest is obedience work.
What makes you think positive reinforcement always starts with a negative?
I believe he is saying that if you show the dog the treat then withold it then that is punishing the dog
totaly misses the point of training, or those of us who have treats, toys, smiles and pats all hidden away to bring out if the dog does something great - mine dont often get to see the reward first - getting rewarded is always an option - and they are not living their lives in stress for the anticipation
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Location: Fife, UK
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06-12-2010, 05:00 PM
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Location: Amongst my dogs, cats and chickens
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06-12-2010, 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn
Right i need a volunteer.
Adam has voluntered to wear the e collar. now i need someone to eat the Malteasers.
Im going to keep shocking & feeding & find out who is most stressed at the end. Jeeezzzzzz
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
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06-12-2010, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Life has stress - but it isnt all bad
anticipation, excitment could be called stress, but life would be dull without them
aprehension, fear, shutting down - why do our dogs need these things in their lives
and I do not see examples of positive training not working
If adam is usint the example that some people cannot train their dogs as positive not working then that is so wron
From what I see in the real world v few people train totaly positivly
Most people (not including people on this forum) reward dogs randomly and confusingly and tend to yell at their dogs and punish them randomly as well
training happnes inspite of the trainer
positive training works in all inteligent creatures
as does correctly timed punishments - but for different reasons
I think it is sad that just because dogs tend to be forgiving enough to let us away with punishing them that we abuse this power
Noone puts a shock collar on a domestic cat, or a mouse
yet people can and do train them using positive methods
as for shock collars 'saving' a dog from a restricted life
how free are they if they are fearing the freedom will bring them pain and being glued to their owners as the only safe place in the scary big world?
as a pose to the owner having the sense to work with their dog and train them with kindness and find safe places for them to be free
Mia is not 100% recal, and possibly never will be - even with a shock collar yet every day she is offlead because i find safe places to take her and I understand her triggers and recal her before trouble arisies
Her life is not restricted - infact it is fuller than it would have been because I have to be more imaganitive about where I take them
but
she is the type of dog who NEEDS to zoom, to run free
and seeing her in the distance, zooming all over the place at 200 mph with no fear only joy - I would never swap that for a poor scared cringing dog who clings to my leg
Personaly I dont see why we think we have the right to punish a dog because we are not smart enough to teach them what we would like them to do
They are not being bad - they are just being dogs, so its wrong to punish them for being themselves
You miss so much of your dog if you punish him until he 'behaives' because then they just stop doing things
You make them dumb, you make them scared, and you restrict their enjoyment of life
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Location: North Lanarkshire, Scotland
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06-12-2010, 05:23 PM
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Location: North Lanarkshire, Scotland
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Posts: 883
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Location: Fife, UK
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06-12-2010, 05:27 PM
Even goldfish have been trick trained with positive reinforcement!
Adam how come world class trainers can use this method in very distracting environments etc and succeed if, as you say, positive dosnt work?
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Location: UK
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06-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by abbie
I did not imply that I saw anything horrible happen other than the dogs being shocked. In my opinion I found it awful.
We don't even know for sure who it was anyway.
Wys
x
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
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06-12-2010, 05:32 PM
That makes my dad a better 'trainer' than AP, despite AP's supposed qualifications.
