So its ok because he does, and not you! NO man would stay in my life very long for even suggesting the use of such equipement..

First you acknowledged the e collar DOES HURT - now you state it does not.

First you said there are trigger happy farmers nearby - then you denied that and said there were not, now suddenly there are again...


If you had actually had the integrity to try the damn e collar on yourself, I probably would have had a bit of respect for you.

As it is, you didn't even have the decency to try it properly. Why not - maybe because deep down you know it would hurt...?

I take a huge issue with that.
It is such an unfair comment to make.

You are on here stating that you feel you training method has worked for an extreme case - from what you have told me I disagree - I do not feel Ben is an extreme case at all - but that aside -

While you continue to defend your chosen method - you will happily knock others who choose to be 100% responsible by allowing their dogs free running in a controlled way.

I ask again - what is so wrong with allowing a dog 50ft of trailing lead? Thus making 100% sure that the dog is under control but being able to behave like a dog.

& that bit of posts, explains why you cannot train a recall.
If you are interested i will go into depth & explain why & what,

WTF
Does penuary mean?????

If thats refering to my dig (whoops obsverations)about holidays, then yes i stand by it, stop boasting about taking your dogs on holiday like you are doing them a favour-when holidays are for yourselfs, stay at home, put them first, give them some of YOUR time.

The comment that you did not understand about time, is your constant referance for being to busy to train your own dogs & your O/H has to do it , but cant devot any more time

So make time, get up earlier, thats what the rest of us do. Recall proofing/priming in the kitchen when you are cooking, 101 training in the house.

I could go on, but i know you dont want to "listen" .

If you wwant help im here, but if you dont you get no sympathy

I would take this offer if I were you! Your dogs - Ben - (and you and your OH) needs it, quite honestly.

You're obsessed about letting him run freely all the time and yet expect him to comply instantly when it comes to recall, even though it sounds as though he has had NO training for recall, apart from a blitz with an e-collar. That's no good! You say you've tried everything else - in 6 months? He hasn't had the chance to learn a "solid" (I put that in inverted commas as he is a northern breed afterall) recall using more humane AND fun methods.

Possibly one day, regardless of how much blasting you do with the collar, he'll just b*gger off anyway and cause harm himself and/or other animals. It's not a risk I believe is worth taking, especially when he can still have free running exercise but still kept under control on a long line and harness.

Oh Tassle... I so know what you mean about what the dogs were going through. It is only something that someone who has taken time to study dog body language can see - the signs of even severe stress can sometimes be so subtle.

One of the saddest videos I saw was of the US franchise person using shock collars on rescue dogs.

He was using the same as Adam uses (but different method to Gnasher) - positive punishment/negative reinforcement (continual stim) and the dogs were constantly appeasing, scared, etc.

It was horrible to see IF you could indeed see.

I liken it to an equine expert who can see a horse lame, or some other problem, when almost everone else cannnot see it, because they are not educated in horses.

Wys
x

Well I've followed this thread from start to finish, posted a few of my own views & questions, got completely confused by the conflicting statements & backtracking that Gnasher has made. But what I find the most insulting is that someone starts a thread that they know will be inflammatory, is bound to be questioned to the hilt about the whys & wherefores of the training & the use of an ecollar ~ but then has the nerve to say they can't be bothered to reply, hasn't got time to read all of the posts ~ & on a thread that they have started!! And to top it all, my very genuine questions were completely ignored, despite stating that I was not attacking the OP personally!

In my book, if you start a thread (& particularly on such an inflammatory subject), the least you can do is have the courtesy & make the time to read the responses & make the effort to reply.

I find it compleatly irrisponsable that anyone JUST lets their dog off the lead without considering their saftey

Training does not mean on the lead for the rest of their life

and even in sheep country it is still possible to find places - I have been on holidays in the borders and the lake district and I was still able to find safe areas where I could let Mia run free every day

- and this is a much smaller dog who can squeeze tru much smaller gaps in fences - and is able to climb walls

every single person with a dog has to adapt their lives somewhat to fit in with the dog, I am sorry but you are making a giant issue of something that isnt really a big deal

You start training in the house
then the garden
then in a safe place with few distractions
building up more and more distractions - while you are doing this you find other ways to exercise him so he dosent get to practise running off again ever


I think you overestimate how dogs think
You cant train a simple recal yet you are a good enough trainer to teach them to leave sheep but chase wildlife?
You expect your dogs to know when you recal but dont really mean it so its OK for them to take thier own sweet time to come back, but for them to come back when you decided you mean it

There are not different levels of recal
either a dog comes back first time every time - or you dont have a recal but a dog choosing to come back if they feel like it

So, have I got this right, Gnasher you and your OH have tried the collar but on your/his arm and not on the part of your anatomy that corisponds with the part where Ben has his.

Ok, now as you made an offer to Westie I'm going to make one to you, that being the same one that was made to Adam.

As an ecollar advicate, will you agree to put the ecollar round your kneck and be zapped and recorded by myself or another dogsey member?

Oh here we go-----same old Adam/Lou/denis stuff but now out of the mouth of an owner who can't be bothered rather than a trainer.

Yuk.

rune