I was wondering when you were going to give me an opening after the PMs to tell you quite Why I find e-collars SO horrendous.

When I was training with someone a few years ago (gosh - nearly 10 now - how frightening!) He had purchased a few e-collars to work with some of the extreme cases that he was dealing with - and yes - I did have one used on me - although admittedly at a very low level and only on my hand.

I looked on is awe as these dogs were 'cured', but I can now recognise the signs of dogs who show extreme appeasement, and who are trying to 'beat' the stim.
I was never the one to press the button, and the dogs were tuned in very differently and with a hell of a lot more time than Gnasher has mentioned on here. I still feel bad for the dogs now, and the owners, who felt they had a miracle cure, without realising what the dogs were actually going through.

So yes - in the past briefly - I thought they had a place, I have now had the chance t work with some truly amazing people who have shown me SO much more and rehabbed some dogs with serious issues....I told you what I did in the PM in the hope it would make you more aware of how dogs can appear to be 'happy' in the hope it would make you re-consider what you plan to do to your boy in the future.

But obviously I am too young and naive to know anything.

I said at the beginning I was saddened by what you have done to Ben - IMO you have abused the trust he placed in you over the 6 months you have owned him.

Weren't you the one who said 'Never say never?'.....and yet the thought of allowing a dog free running over a 50ft area attached to a trailing lead is so bad - you would re-home a dog before subjecting it to this. So instead - you make the do yelp in pain and attempt to recreate that pain when the dog is out of sight.
He had gone through a fence...what if he was caught on it? what if someone had hold of him? what if he was interacting nicely with another dog?....the list goes on.
Oh - I forget - you don't like the what if scenarios as well...

Tassle, I wasn't actually referring to your good self, I have told you that I would never break a confidence, or reveal what anyone said to me in a PM or a private email, but nonetheless I appreciate your honesty.

Absolutely I say "never say never". Which is why is started this thread in the first place! I have had dogs for over 40 years, and I don't consider I have done more than just scratch the surface of all there is to know and learn about man's best friend. The whole time, ever since I first had Hal, I am rethinking, analysing, evolving - surely this is what we all do as good owners? Not stick with the same old, same old, but evolve and move on on a daily basis. I work as a medical secretary to Consultants in a general hospital, and the Consultant I currently work for spends every Thursday morning at home or in the library on Amadeo reading all the latest abstracts in his particular discipline, and downloading the full reviews and studying and learning from them. He evolves on a weekly basis, and keeps up with the latest research, reads up on the interesting cases, etc. etc.

Obviously, the comparison is a little tenuous here, dogs are not humans, but the point I am trying to make is that we all should evolve, learn and continually update our "database" on a regular basis - which is why I always say "never say never" - with dogs, as well as horses.

Yet again, someone who just pounces in an emotional way without reading my posts.

If you had bothered to read - admittedly they are rather a lot - you would know that I am not obsessive about recall, I allow my dogs a free rein, I am fully aware that sibes, mals, and mixes of these are rarely going to have immaculate recall. I have gone to great lengths to explain I do not expect an immediate recall, all I ask is that my dogs do not run off - that they come within reason when they are called. They do not have to roar straight back to me and screech to a perfect sit every time I whistle or call them, I just want them to come back to me. They can do this any way they want, circle back, sniffing on the way, having a wee, whatever. We take our dogs out, off lead, for miles and miles on our mountain bikes along the canals, we don't need to harness them, as long as we keep peddling, they keep following!!

The problem we had with Ben was that during these winter months when the canal towpaths are flooded frequently, he has been running off onto roads and into fields and not coming back for several minutes, or even longer. So we have addressed that problem quickly, effectively and so far relatively painlessly for Ben.

Thanks for your kind offer of help - I have always wanted to work dogs in harness, but as I say cannot afford a rig. Do you know muddiwarx? She has mals which she races, and can give very good advice as well, so thanx very much

Ah, I get it. You're using the excuse of your OH using the shock collar as a get out to using the collar yourself.

You AND your OH are responsible for the dogs' training and welfare and everything else that goes along with owning dogs, surely? Am I wrong? Is he your OH's dog? Or does he belong to both of you?

IMHO, you are BOTH responsible for the use of this barbaric tool, not just one or the other, regardless of WHO presses the buttons to control it and if you really want to big up these things, I suggest you use it (and your OH) - at all levels - first with someone else controlling it so as neither of you know when the shock is going to happen.

Yes, I can read, actually, and I'm not the only person understanding your posts in the same manner.

IF you are making yourself sound and behave like the most important things in that dogs life and he is still not responding in any way, shape or form, then it would be far more humane, kinder and sensible to keep the dog on a long line and harness and continually and repetitively work at his recall every single day until he has a stable recall. This takes time AND ongoing training.

Haven't read the last 5 pages - sorry.

Hmm, you've had behavioural problems with more than one dog, call them "gits" etc. Sounds to me like you (and your OH) are unable to train a dog properly and humanely, using far kinder methods than an e-collar.

If I were you, I'd find myself a GOOD, reputable behaviourist who uses positive methods of training. I'm sure people like Mish and Tassle would be able to point you in the right direction.

What? Resorting to being a bitch now? That's nasty Mish, low blow, you know the reasons why we have ended up in penuary - at least I am sure I have told you, apologies if I haven't

O God!! IT IS A JOKE !! Speak to anyone who has these type of dogs, and they will same the same !! Some wag, I forgot who, says the collective noun for her pack of Utes is an ASBO!!

The type of dogs I like are challenging breeds - northern breeds (I am not going to use the W word for fear of reprisal). They are all gits, loveable gits, and I adore them and would not want to change them. When I first got Tai, I used to say he is too good, I want a dog who is more of a challenge - then we got Ben !!

you should not have these kind of dogs...u do not have enough understanding and patience for them!!
to say u love them..but have to resort to pain to train them?
you got your messed up rescue with a very sibey personality..... and u are out of your depth!
as to passing the buck 'oh its not me using the collar its my o/h' how sad is that!!!

Actually, this is all far from a joke, Gnasher.

I know many people with northern breeds (neighbour of years has two) - I am also good friends with SibeVibe on here (being in amongst her pack is amazing) and have other friends with northern breeds who we often walk with - and have heard many a story from the likes of SibeVibe.

She may be smaller - much smaller - but do you think a Border Collie x Basenji who has been subjected to an e-collar in previous 5 years to me rehoming her and who had had little to no training, was not challenging? Ha. I wish you'd known her to start with and know the dog she is today. But like Ben, she WAS NOT an extreme case.

However, that said, the responsible people I know who own northern breeds (and any other breed or type of dog) keep their dogs on long lines (and harnesses, depending on the dog and size) and continually train them to recall without the use of such devices and surprise, surprise, most have learned recall! Fancy that! There are a couple of dogs though (one a northern breed) who cannot be trusted NOT to chase wildlife and so their owners are responsible and keep them on long lines. They are still able to run, mix and play with other dogs though!

With regards to owning challenging breeds and dogs, IMHO it really is not a wise thing for you to do as you clearly don't have patience or understanding for them in order to train and control them safely and humanely.