One point I would like to correct ... that wolves regurgitate food for their young, but dogs don't.

I'm sorry to be blunt yet again, but this is the most utter load of rubbish that I have yet read about dogs and wolves !!

Dogs, ordinary dogs, most certainly do regurgitate. I used to breed German Shorthaired Pointers many years ago purely on a non-professional basis, and my bitch Lizzie regurgitated regularly for the pups, to the point where I was getting worried as she was so thin.

And I recall the bitch that Hal mated with for the first time regurgitating for her pups.

Where did that come from !! I cannot believe anyone could "regurgitate" !! such nonsense !!

Is this now a thread about wolves? I thought it was question for dog owners on a dog forum. I don`t have wolves, don`t want to pretend I have wolves and know little about wolves.
Bored now.....

No ClaireandDaisy, you don't have wolves, you have dogs ... dogs which are the direct descendents of wolves.

You're right though, we are getting off track. This thread is about whether we should or should not be alpha, or pack leader, what you will.

I say yes you should, you say no you shouldn't. Therein lies hundreds of pages of fascinating debate !!

gnasher, se view of the pack is flawed because it dosent take into account why all the members are there and what happens when they leave the pack

two wolves breed and produce a litter
in that litter there will be different personalities, some more bolshie some better at other things, if the behaviour they offer is rewarding to them, they can mibby get extra food or it avoids a fight then they will do this behaviour more
wolves become sexualy mature far later than dogs so when the parents breed the next litter many of the first litter will still be there and they will help raise their siblings
a nanny is not a low ranking femail she is a younster training to be a mother
over time the older cubs will leave or be driven off, they will find mates and produce their own pack

gnasher, and others, i know you feel you have seen evidence that your behaviour as alpha changed how your dog behaived but any cases i have seen or heard from just involved the owner deciding on behaviours they wanted from the dog and training the dog, teaching a dog to get off the sofa, or wait at a door or something is just teaching tricks, the more you teach the quicker the dog will learn and the more it will want to work with you
se and cm are just people who have studied a v small fraction of all the dogs and wolves out there, ignored the up to date studies of their peers, described the animals behaviour based on the theories they already believed in
its like me deciding to study the human race, having heard theories that humans have a certan pack structure, then going to a school and observing kids
i might see some useful behaviours but not the whole picture and my observations will be biased based on what i expected to see

a dogs natural environment is living with people so even if se work was relivent for wolves it isnt for dogs or wolfdogs living with humans

May I clarify the point about regurgitation ...
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/regurg/index.htm

Yes a bitch will sometimes regurgitate her food to her puppies. This often happens to wards the end of weaning when her milk is starting to dry up. Because the food has been chewed and mixed with the digestive fluids in the bitches stomach, I guess it may be easier for the puppies to digest but this behaviour is best prevented because it can cause the bitch to lose weight and correctly fed puppies have no need of this 'service'.

Now compare this behaviour with wolves, see the extract above. ''All adult wolves, including yearlings and a post-reproductive female, regurgitated food'' so it is not just the dam as in dogs, all adult wolves, so this is obviously the males too and a pack activity.

So just to recap ,'dogs' the male of the species as opposed to the female 'bitchs' do not regurgitate food for their young whereas male wolves do (as it would seem other females who are not the mothers of the young also do).
A male wolf will also regurgitate 'to the breeding female' .

That's so how I understood it, seem many a litter weaned from the dam, and never yet seen a dam regurgitate food for them

With the correct care and feeding regime the bitch (domesticated dogs) will have no need to regurgitate food for her pups.


Because you dont agree with it, does not make it rubbish..many experienced people here has an opinion too, and because your bitch regurgitated her food, does not make it the norm, or other opinions rubbish!!!!

To be clear: There is no "alpha" protein.

Unfortunately this is a false view, not only does nature not act in a vacuum there can also be no nurture without the supporting "nature". "When pigs learn to fly" is a good example; you could teach a pig to fly but nature has made sure it never will.

BTW the argument you make is a logical fallacy known as begging the question. It is circular logic.

To be clear, genetics do not code for behaviors, they code for RNA which may then translated into proteins. Some of these proteins are regulatory proteins which control other genes, others for what is commonly though of as proteins. siRNA, promoters, suppressors, the list of ways in which gene and protein are controlled is quite long and many of these are responding to environmental clues. Needless to say the subject is quite complex - even for those of us who study it - and not as simple as you make it out.

Frankly I don't know where or how Ellis came up with this. What measurements did he use? Sounds like a case of post-diction and selective bias on his part.

To provide a human analogy, several years ago there was a landmark review of what it takes to achieve world class performance/genius performance. They looked at world class athletes, chess players, scientists. The results was the same for all of them. It wasn't genetics that made these people great - it was a combination of dedication to the craft, opportunities since childhood, a good mentor and 10-15 years of practice. Laszlo Polgar believed this so strongly he decided to create chess champions and succeeded with his daughers Susan Polgar, Judit Polgar and Zsofia . The same for the father of Tiger Woods, he wasn't born great. He practiced and became great. Gladwell's book 'Outliers' and 'Talent is Overrated" by G. Colvin explore this phenomena .

As an aside: There is a dog trainer that makes a similar claim for dogs, saying that it takes about 1500-2500 successful repetitions for a dog to truly "get it". Given that all the guys I've had don't start peaking until 3 (one 5 - almost gave up on him) it sounds just about right.

Hannaho I said there was no evidence to my knowledge about this,
Ah, but then we're talking wolves again Gnasher, not dogs, so to my mind, there's still no evidence as dogs are not wolves

Dogs don't work like this as they don't live in packs anyway...as mentioned somewhere in this thread, with links to articles (don't ask me where though )

Wys
x

I remember that one but it wasn't that one, it was another one I've actually got it on video I remember (it will be in the attic).

Wys
x

hi wysiwyg you may believe its incorrect but i believe otherwise ive seen it first hand ive been around working dogs all of my life and ive had a few of them try to be the boss of me but not my partner im the soft one so they take advantage of that.


promethean

my breed of dog the beagle were bred to live in packs i understand that most breeds do not need to live in packs but mine do ive seen it first hand what beagles go through if there left on thereo wn.

my first beagle destroyed my house when i was soft with her she was the boss of me no questions but when my partner would come home she was a brilliant dog

this is my opinion and i dont expect anyone to agree with me at all but i felt i wanted to join this debate as its really intresting - now i wish i hadnt as its seems you are making fun of my of my opinion. which to be honest i never though anyone would do that on this site i wont be adding anythin else again to this