Train the dog out of the behaviour that "we" define as being against "our" rules.


There are worse things than death allright, but responsible training doesn't have to equate to inflicting unnecessary pain.

I think that sometimes it's necessary, but it's a fair point - if in most cases, the dog had been treated properly from the begining, there'd be no need for any aversives.

I don't think there's any need for aversives EVER. If the dog was not trained properly from the beginning, then you start over with kindness, praise, and plenty of rewards.

Otherwise you get dogs that look like Adam's.

No - I agree - but I think that e-collars do inflict unnecessary pain - and not only that -I believe they mask the issues without actually solving them.
Which leads me to feel that the dog is not always better off through this kind of 'training'.

Your claim is that the dog is saved to a lifetime of fear and anxiety. My claim is that the dog may be saved to a better life.

But let's be clear about this - I see no need whatsoever to use an e-collar on a young pup to get it to sit, walk to heel, etc. I'm speaking in terms of behaviour which is putting the dog itself, or others in danger, which pretty much comes down to predatory behaviour - which itself might well have been prevented had the dog not been let down by its owner in the first place.

On that we'll have to disagree (for now).

I'll leave it there for now, off out with the dogs in the sun and the snow.

I geberally use the obedience behaviours to tackle aggression, so in other words incompatible behaviours (sound familar).
So for aggression you would mix the dog with other dogs and if he displays aggresison use the recall/leave to stop him, backed with working level stim. You train the recall in first of course separate to the other dogs.
You can also use down (disarms them) and heel for on lead reactivity.

Some trainers also tackle aggession with their own approach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieBy9cK3vlQ
(requires a fence)

and end result of Sadie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6quOCU-i_Mo

Or crittering, just type in Lou castle crittering. Requires a field.

Adam

And yet most e-collar trained dogs I've seen and many trained to choke chains and the like seem to be full of anxiety.

At one class I took (I walked out of the second class because I couldn't deal with it and my dog was shut down just by being in the room with all this), dogs were consistently trained with leash pops. The dogs were riddled with anxiety and horribly reactive.

I have a neighbor who "trains" using a choke chain. She's been using it for over a year now and her dog howls every time she pops him with it and their walks are a terrible struggle. Her dog is really stressed out, panting, yawning a lot. My dog loves other dogs but is scared of him.[/quote]

I'm glad we can agree on this much.

Predatory behavior can often be prevented with one simple tool: a leash. If I had a dog who would chase sheep or other livestock and had to walk near them a lot, she'd simply be on a leash. Beyond that, the dog needs to be taught impulse control and positive reinforcement can work wonders for that.

The problem I find is that people don't even TRY positive reinforcement. My neighbor? Her vet told her she has a GSD and they're "a dominant breed" and she needed to use aversives with him. So she immediately dropped out of the positive reinforcement class and bought a choke chain and prong collar. Yet she always tells me she really wants a dog who acts like mine. I've tried telling her that was through 100% positive reinforcement yet she won't even try it. She wants the "quick fix" which isn't even working quickly!

Adam, do you ever address or even acknowledge that aggression has many different causes?

Tossing a dog in with a bunch of dogs when its aggression is from fear is the WORST thing you could do for that dog.

(Well, 2nd worst maybe...the first being slapping a shock collar on the dog)

You obviously work at distance/number of dog levels first and build up.

Aggression has any number of causes, if you diagnoise it wrong and treat it with the wrong diagnoise likely you will make it worse!

I prefer to simply teach the dog how to behave around other dogs, that will make him feel comfortable around, stop any domiannce, and so on.

Adam