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bordercollie6
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Location: Happas farmhouse, scotland
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14-05-2009, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by jess View Post
Thanks for your very useful input, and for making stories up along the way (who said I got the dog from any rescue organisation?) (who said she is neurotic or nervous?) (or that she was 'forced' !!!! I have seen many bitches react badly to males that the breeders choose to mate!)

Don't jump to conclusions before knowing the story, this thread wasn't about how the pups came to be, (it is about how they will be) which is why I have been forced to defend myself and my desicions, that I am entirely comfortable with.
(p.s. perhaps you should read about how bitches can be as bad as males at wanting to mate... all my new dogs are in crates, esp ones that I have seen damage their owners house!!)

She certainly doesn't seem stressed by this, infact the opposite. A very very contented mother.
It is one of the best things I have ever done, I am enjoying every new moment (this morning I learned that on their 5th day these pups show the signs of a reflex as adult dogs get when you find the right spot and their back leg starts dancing) some things you can't learn from a book - as any behaviourist knows, hands on is 100% better.
Jess do you really know anything about this bitch.
Has she been eye tested for cea when a puppy and has she been eye tested for pra and also has she been hip scored, thing about all this if the bitch has not been tested for cea-whats to stop her from being a cea carrier, honestly
we have enough problems in collies as it is and i find it really hard to believe you mated this bitch and never thought about what conseqences might bring.Reflex can not tell you what problems might arise, my worry is what i had to say above.
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Teal'c
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14-05-2009, 12:44 PM
I’m in shock and totally saddened by this thread. What disgusted me the most is you deem it appropriate to say it is in the name of science? You are utterly deluding yourself Jess this is not science. You are using animals that are already vulnerable for self purpose.

I was wondering is there a granted project licence? specifically under the terms of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, which authorises the proposed experiments with live animals? Also not sure which institution your with but does it have an Ethics (or Animal Care and Use) Committee for animal experiments? If it does has your proposal and research experiments received its approval? If you worked for the institute that I do you’d be lucky to keep a job if you carrying out research without institute backing and all appropriate licences.

Bio-sensor program, as I mentioned at the start has been around for longer than most of us, however I find little evidence of British breeders using it


If you had done your background research properly you’d actually find that most good breeders do employ such methods in the rearing of puppies and don’t even realise that it is linked to the theories of bio-senory. Interestingly I have observed this myself on a few litters that were breed not to far away from you. Also you paint an all glowing support for this theory and have said nothing for the proven negative impacts that are associated with over sensory stimulation.

All I truly hope is the poor bitch and her puppies find true loving homes and suffer no more at your hands.
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Ramble
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14-05-2009, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by bordercollie6 View Post
Jess are you the female from dundee that has the web site dundee dog trainer
Yes, I think it is the same person, she did have a link to her website on her profile but it seems to have disappeared. Is there a reason that you are asking that?(just being nosey!!!)
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bordercollie6
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14-05-2009, 11:43 PM
Really just wondering if it is her,not being nosey as i have heard different things about this female and the fact i live just outside dundee and some one had mentioned her.
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Patch
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15-05-2009, 04:20 AM
Yes it is the same Jess, I note on her website she neglects to mention it was her disgraceful lack of care, [ or could it have been deliberate, one can`t help but wonder quite frankly ??? ], which resulted in a large litter from a supposedly rescue`d bitch, [ this is not the kind of `rescuing` the poor girl needed obviously ], of whom she knew nothing about, and no health tests for, she puts it on her site as, "I am lucky enough to have the opportunity to raise from birth a litter of nine beautiful Border Collie pups (hands on research!)", so people reading the guff about this dire situation on there who don`t know the truth may well believe things were done properly when they could`nt have been done in a worse way imo
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Patch
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15-05-2009, 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by jess View Post
As for 'over excersising' I never have. That would be pushing a dog over it's ability, of course it will cause damage. However I will dissagree to the day I die that giving a young dog an hours walk is a bad thing (unless he clearly is showing signs of tiredness).


In other words you still have learned zero about BCs, you have been told repeatedly before Jess, they will all too often keep going til they drop, by the time the most stoic will show they are too tired to keep going is literally when they would need to be taken to a vet pdq probably needing a drip urgently to combat exhaustion and dehydration.

But hey, you know it all don`t you Jess, the rest of us considerably older and considerably more experienced BC people know nothing do we, sheesh

Incidentally, are you still letting your sheep aggressive dog run around livestock off lead because you don`t want to be inconvenienced by using a lead ?
You did`nt want to hear what anyone said about that either did you Jess.

You can rest assured your `training` and `rescue` business [ sic ] is not on my recommendation list.
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Ramble
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15-05-2009, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by bordercollie6 View Post
Really just wondering if it is her,not being nosey as i have heard different things about this female and the fact i live just outside dundee and some one had mentioned her.
Nooooo. It was me that was being nosey!!!

Patch...well said.
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bordercollie6
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15-05-2009, 06:50 PM
I cant believe this female jess is for real.
See these people that come in to dogs and think they know it all and really dont know nothing are a danger, saddens me greatly. I f she wanted to know and learn about raising puppies she should have went to someone that has experience and love for the breed and not used mum and pups as lab rats.
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colliemagic
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16-05-2009, 06:28 AM
Been following this thread and agree with the other posters. However Mary Ray discusses ENS in her latest book 'Raising a Superdog' which is available everywhere so how can she say that no one is aware of this method.

In Mary Rays book she shows how to use the method for the good of the pups and not as an experiment for the breeder. The method is used on pups properly bred from a mum who has had all the health checks and been correctly looked after.

I am horrified that this woman runs a 'rescue centre' and is advising people on the care of border collies. There are enough people around who havent a clue about this breed without her adding to the number.
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Ramble
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25-07-2013, 05:36 PM
Still can't quite believe this was said.......long time ago, just brought to ,y attention again




Originally Posted by jess View Post
Hope it is alright to put this in here... I feel it has great importance in the behavioural section, to help more people understand the significance and importance of early stimulation and learning before pups leave for new homes.

It surprises me that such old and genuine research is ignored, because it is so vital. I see many problem cases with dogs between 10 months to 2 years old, which my my opinion could have been prevented.

A border collie foster dog of mine was picked up late at night, in the latter days of her season (I was not told or aware) and in the morning she was tied to my border collie resident. She had severe seperation problems at at only a year and a half had already had, and destroyed, 3 homes. After lengthy discussions we decided not to abort, as it might be calming for her (different hormones etc) and this has proved true, although in the past two months she has been a very different dog with me anyway (and is happily left without injury to herself (she self harmed) or my house).

I knew vaguely of the bio-sensor program and the research that had been carried out through 1930's-50's including the military's experiements creating the 'super dog'. I started some more indepth reading and combining this research with the research done by Assistance dogs, and you come to a conclusion that work can begin with pups, but rarely does, at 2 days old.

My vet friend and I will be writing for the local press, in the hope that we can raise potential puppy buyers awareness, and stop breeders leaving pups and mothers just to get on with it in a barn etc, as we have evidence, and lots of it, of what happens to pups not exposed to stimuli until leaving at the critical age that is 8 weeks.

If anyone is interesting in the program I can send on some interesting reading, otherwise there is a shortened version, along with 2 day old pictures of the pups, on my website.

Interested to hear your thoughts or questions,
Jess.x.
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