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Wysiwyg
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17-10-2006, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Absolutely correct.
And no dog ever bites for no reason. The reason may not be obvious but it will be there.

In cases where a trigger can not easily or instantly be determined, then medical checks is the way to go, and should be in a lot of cases where triggers are known but something medical could be at the root of it.
Not doing thorough checks, including bloods, MRI, Thyroid levels etc etc means a perfectly easily treatable medical condition could be going ignored and the dog gets killed.

...........................
It sickens me that other dogs possibly suffering illness, an outwardly unseen condition, or pain which is not so obvious, are just killed instead of being diagnosed and possibly treated, like the one described on that program might have been had the myriad of medical possibilities been explored properly.

**I did not see the episode, [ I wont watch that woman - one series was more than enough for me ], so I am going by what has been said about it.
Agree! I had the impression the dog had been vet checked although we have no idea how thoroughly. Some vets seem to do only basic checks even when dogs are referred to them for a behaviour problem.

Patch, I do think VS has improved a lot, her second and this series are a big improvement
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Patch
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17-10-2006, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
Just as an afterthought, who would take on a dog that had bitten twice before, once unprovoked?
I have three rescued ex biters :smt039
Unprovoked does not mean ` for no reason`, just that the reason was unclear or was not explored, pure and simple.
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Kazz
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17-10-2006, 11:28 PM
Hello I haven't seen the programme I was at work but can someone tell me if its repeated at all during the week.

The only thing I can add, my cousin kept the family dog Blue a Rhodesian Ridgeback (25 years ago now) after it had nipped their eldest son, had the dog checked out - he was healthy the vet said a one off maybe they kept him - less than a year later Blue attacked their middle son so seriously "yet with no known reason" that Danny (son) had 37 stitches to his face and 24 to his shoulder and lost the use of a finger trying to protect his face and partial use of his thumb (nerve damage) you can still see the scarring now he is a grown man of 33.
His parents my cousin and his wife never forgave themselves for giving the dog a 2nd chance.
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Patch
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17-10-2006, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
we don't really know what the reason for the behaviour was, esp. as the child was alone when it happened.

That says it all. Why are humans so incredibly stupid ?
What will it take to drum in to people not to leave children and dogs together without supervision, no matter how sweet a dogs temperament might be ? For all we know then, the child might have been ramming a crayon in the dogs eye or trying to ride on it or any number of things, [ without malice but just by being a child who does`nt know better ], which humans think dogs should tolerate without so much as a whimper
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Wysiwyg
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17-10-2006, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
That says it all. Why are humans so incredibly stupid ?
What will it take to drum in to people not to leave children and dogs together without supervision, no matter how sweet a dogs temperament might be ? For all we know then, the child might have been ramming a crayon in the dogs eye or trying to ride on it or any number of things, [ without malice but just by being a child who does`nt know better ], which humans think dogs should tolerate without so much as a whimper
I know, agree; however the child who was interviewed was about - dunno, 9? 10? and fairly mature I'd think. She was hanging out the washing or taking it in when it happened, we are told, not interacting with the dog.

I tend to think it may have been related to previous dealings with the dog and children, maybe linked to resource guarding... but that's guessing ...

Considering the children had been bitten before, it would have been um prudent for them to always have been supervised when near the dogs...!
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Wysiwyg
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18-10-2006, 12:00 AM
Just seen this link, a reply from VS, on another site:

October 17, 2006

Following the airing of tonight’s (Oct. 17, 2006) episode of ‘It’s Me or the Dog’ on Channel 4, I am aware of many viewers’ sadness after watching the program, as it is a sentiment I share. In the episode, one of the family’s cocker spaniels, Benjy, unfortunately had to be put to sleep after having bitten their youngest daughter three times and then mauling their middle daughter unprovoked. We had worked very hard with the family and with Benjy during the filming of the program, but while real progress was made regarding his training, he ultimately had too strong a history of unprovoked attacks on children, and this was something that couldn’t be ignored. Six weeks after finishing the filming of the program, Benjy mauled the daughter, causing significant injuries. It is my firm belief as a dog trainer that once a dog has bitten, he can never be trusted 100% not to bite again. The sad fact is that while this behaviour can be modified and managed, there is always a possibility of a bite happening again if the dog’s bite threshold is reached. There is also a difference between a bite and a mauling. The attack on the little girl was a frenzied attack and was classed as a mauling.

I was shocked when I heard Benjy had attacked again, and deeply saddened by the realization that this dog could never be successfully rehomed without significant threat of harm to its owners or others. Many have suggested that he could have been trained to become a ‘police dog’ or a ‘drugs dog,’ but this was unfortunately not an option, either. While dogs that work for police can be taught to direct what looks like aggressive behaviour towards specific targets, most of these dogs are trained to behave in a certain way without feeling it. They are trained that barking and then biting a suspect is a game for which they receive a reward such as a ball after their job has been completed. These dogs would not be any good if they felt aggression when they were doing their work. They are the most highly trained of all dogs, and represent 100% success, as they must be trusted with their behavior in all circumstances, all the time. Benjy, while a very intelligent, loving dog, was not to be trusted. With evidence of what occurred before, during and after the attack there was also suspicion of a neurological condition known as rage syndrome and this had been discussed with the vet. The mother had also been on the receiving end of a mauling where the dog exhibited the same kind of strange behaviour before, during and after the attack. Rage syndrome is a well-documented condition that has been linked with epilepsy, where the dog has no comprehension of what is has done, before, during and after an attack. The dog will have a glazed look in its eyes and will normally be very quiet after an attack, similar to a fit.

While I agree that watching what Benjy and his owners went through was painful and very upsetting, I feel that the most responsible thing we could have done was illustrate how difficult the whole situation was for everyone involved. Too many dog owners take their dog’s problems too lightly, and as we have seen in recent news reports, the result of that irresponsibility can be truly tragic. As the mother of a 2-year old, I know how hard it can be to monitor the content our children watch on TV, and I feel that a program like tonight's, while difficult, was not improper.

I feel terribly sad for Benjy and his owners – losing a pet under any circumstances is extremely difficult, and when the owners must make that decision themselves, it is unimaginably tragic. I am adamantly against putting pets to sleep when it is unwarranted, and unfortunately, far too many pets are lost that could be saved and rehomed. The vast majority of the work I’ve done over the years has been with rescue shelters in New York City, where the euthanasia problem is out of control. I have personally saved over 40 animals from being put to sleep and am constantly trying to think of ways to save more. That is not to say, however, that dogs should never be put to sleep. In rare cases, I feel that keeping dangerous dogs alive ultimately does more harm than good.

Part of my responsibility as host of ‘It’s Me or the Dog’ is to not shy away from the difficult decisions, and while I would rather that every episode end in success, the cold, hard truth is that sometimes there are unhappy endings. I think it would have been far more irresponsible for us to not air tonight’s program or temper the impact its conclusion had on everyone involved.

I understand the anger and upset that many viewers felt watching tonight’s episode, and I share it. It was not lightly that I made the decision to encourage the owners to put Benjy to sleep, but I do believe it was the right decision.

Victoria Stilwell
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Patch
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18-10-2006, 12:34 AM
[QUOTE=Wysiwyg;790523]Just seen this link, a reply from VS, on another site:
[quote]

Thanks for the link. I read it and feel it still is far too vague. I have just joined that forum specifically to ask questions regarding her response. In case its too sensible a post there or gets removed for daring to speak up, what I have posted there reads :

`Suspecting` a medical condition and `discussing` it with a vet sounds rather spurious, particularly as Cocker Rage is a very over used `diagnosis` thrown around by people generally, [ including some vets ], who can`t think of other causes, and when no referal has been made to the few experts in this `condition`.
Was there a clinical diagnosis which could only be achieved through an MRI, and a thyroid panel at the very least ?
Were these tests done ?
If not, why not ?
What other actual tests or x-rays to find any medical causes for the aggression were done ?
Again, if none were done, why not ?

I wont be holding my breath for her to answer those questions...
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Nicci_L
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18-10-2006, 12:52 AM
Didnt see the programme so cannot comment speaking from a point of view where I have been in a situation where one of my previous dogs attacked my daughter I chose not to put my dog to sleep (he hasnt bitten anyone since - four years after the incident) I don't think every dog that bites should be put to sleep, even though my dog bit my daughter I still belive I made the right choice for us and him - some belive he shouldn't have been given a second chance, the words of a club secretary to us were "That dog should be in the ground". I cannot go into to specific details without naming names and I don't want to do that as his lines are well known for producing dogs with aggressive behaviours coupled along with the fact that he was extremely food aggressive, the food aggression was something we worked on before deciding to re-home him with the help of someone who had been in the breed for years (and is also a very good animal behaviourist) out of all the people we turned to within the circles she was the only one that agreed with us that our dog did not deserve to be put to sleep, others just wanted him brushed under the carpet and forgot about. I never forgave him for what he did - he broke that trust hence the reason we rehomed him after his issues had been worked with. He's now a happy dog and I am extremely relived to say that my daughter dispite her injuries at the time has suffered no lasting effects from the incident that happened that day. She wasn't left alone, never has been with any of them - the attack took place before our very eyes over food she was attempting to pick up that she had dropped alongside our dog (husband at the time almost killed our dog with his bare hands in a blind panic to release our daughter from our dogs grip - something I am deeply ashamed to admit to but had he not perhaps her injuries would have been much worse than they were and our dog would have probably been put to sleep without it being questioned). I'm glad we gave him a chance (I know it must sound like I am a terribly harsh person and a bad parent for not doing what people wanted) but I would have only put our dog to sleep if all efforts to curb his behaviour had been exhausted, or he went on to attack someone again - which he hasnt done. I'm all for second chances, but not third, fourth or fifth.
No - one can honestly say what they would do, until if god forbid it ever happened to them.

I'm glad in a way I don't watch much T.V because had I have flicked over and seen a doggy programme I probably would have watched it.
Very sad, for all concerned
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BrandieSnap
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18-10-2006, 01:27 AM
This was such a sad episode
I do think the right decision was made though. I don't have children but I know if a dog had caused those injuries to my child, I would not have been able to keep it.
The dog could have been rehomed, and with the right person probably could have been fine for the rest of it's life. But finding that home could be difficult - so what would have happened to the dog in the meantime. It would be hard to find a rescue who would take it on so where could the dog go whilst looking for the right owner that they may never have found
I don't think the decision could have been easy for any of them so I just feel really sorry for them


I don't know why they have to have It's Me or the Dog as an half hour programme. Once they've shown all the dogs problems, stuck in an advert and left time for the conclusion part, there's hardly any time to show the work involved They just show the parts that make "good" televison and miss out all the hard work.
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Nursey
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18-10-2006, 07:21 AM
I've read the link provided and I agree with everthing VS has said in defence of the programme. This poor family made a mistake in their upbringing of their dogs, they recognised it, and sought help. Sadly despite everybodys best efforts Benjy couldn't be helped. The family consulted their vet for advice and also VS too, I was impressed with their strength to take that advice.

It is not for us to critisise, they made their own decisions about their own dog, and what was best for their family.

God bless Benjy, RIP little man.

Dawn R.
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