register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Azz
Administrator
Azz is offline  
Location: South Wales, UK
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,577
Male 
 
01-03-2011, 01:29 PM
This post is aimed at Tass - I'm using quotes from you wonderful people to help demonstrate my point

Originally Posted by Tass View Post
Punishment is not synonymous with pain, although pain can be punishing.
That's correct (and I never said otherwise) but the problem is those training with pain trying to justify themselves by saying positive training methods punish too - like that puts them on the same level - it does not.

Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
The original annoying claim was that negative punishment was occurring all the time during positive reinforcement training...
Wys points it out too ^^

'Punishment' (and I used the word loosely) in positive training methods is no where near as brutal as the dog being punched in the face or given an electric shock! That's why most sane people would see it as an oxymoron.

Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Well said Wys .

In the context of dog training, frustration is may a negative emotion, but people that try to use pos R for the majority of their training, especially in the context of training NEW behaviours, will do their best to ensure that there is minimal frustration. The whole point of using something like clicker training or other forms of pos R is to set things up for the dog to succeed by using shaping techniques, incremental steps &, most importantly IMO, being aware of the context in which you are doing the training.

In the context of dog training, the temporary witholding of a reinforcer can be used to up the ante & ask the dog to perform “better”. But also in the context of dog training, anyone trying to use pos R would ensure that the frustration is minimised by not asking too much too soon ~ allowing the dog to succeed. Provided that the ante is upped slowly & gradually, any frustration would soon be overcome by the opportunity to succeed. Dogs that have been taught using pos R are not only being taught to do a certain behaviour, or not do another behaviour, but have also learned that training is fun, that the whole “learning” session is fun, they are eager to learn & clearly enjoy the whole process.

Clealy using OC principles there will be some frustration if the reinforcer is witheld when you are trying to get more accurate & instant behaviour etc. Similarly if you want to stop a behaviour that was previously reinforced there will be an extinction burst while the dog tries harder to get the reinforcer. But pos R trainers will do their best to minimise this by teaching an alternative & incompatible behaviour.

I am currently witnessing an extinction burst at home with one of my cats. The cat makes a piteous sounding miaow (just the way she sounds, the “piteous” bit is husband’s anthropomorphic interpretation of the noise!) so husband gives her attention which shuts her up. When he stops the attention, she miaows again ~ cat has learned that this gets her attention. Husband moans that he can’t understand why the cat keeps miaowing, what it is that she wants & he hates the noise, but still continually rewards the cat by giving her attention. I told him to ignore the noise & give her attention when she’s quietened down & is sleeping in her bed. Husband tried this & says she just miaows even more when he ignores her. I explained about extinction bursts .

So in the context of my cat, she may be experiencing negative punishment inasmuch as she’s frustrated by not getting the attention she wants & used to get. But in the context of her whole life experience, this is hardly a major event. She gets plenty of attention at other times, just not when she’s sitting in her bed in the sitting room, while we’re eating or watching TV. IMO this is not anywhere near the same as using pos punishment by shouting at her, or hitting her, or picking her up & removing her from the room, or shutting her away. Inevitably there’s a bit of neg pun at the start ~ I don’t think any of us that profess to be use pos R in animal training would deny that there can be an element of neg pun now & again. But what we try to do is minimise that side of things & try to find alternatives.

I love this quote from Kay Laurence in “Learning About Dogs”. It sets out quite clearly the ethos of pos R training. But more than that, it makes it quite clear that relying purely on the science of OC principles is not what dog training is all about. OC principles are just a small part of the process, just a tool in the trainer’s tool box.

"If I am teaching a dog, I avoid every atom of punishment or removal of something good to get the behaviour. It is not a question of how aversive, it is the thought that aversive is a method to get a behaviour. The actions are an indication of the thought process that aversives are part of the teaching process. I will say, 'Let's just find another way.

We all think we're "positive" trainers. But training with reinforcement involves more than just being nice, and more than using reinforcers. It involves creating a climate of security in which it is safe to learn new things, and safe to rely on what you've already learned. In this climate an animal can learn to control itself, rather than being controlled by you. In this climate, rather than just reacting to the environment like an untutored shelter dog, barking at every noise, plunging towards every attraction, jumping on everyone and everything, mouthing and smelling and grabbing—an animal becomes confident and calm. In this climate, having confidence that your cues are meaningful and will lead toward pleasant goals, the dog is trusting and—this is very unscientific—the dog is happy."

IMO the use of harsh punishment such as electric shocks, prong collars, lead jerks etc says far more about the person using them, & not in a good way! If they try to convince others that using these methods is kinder because it’s quicker, or it’s kinder because the alternative is euthanasia, then they clearly don’t have the ability to empathise with animals, to consider the emotional element of training, or to consider the welfare impact on the animal as a whole.
Nice post Wilbur!

Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
I don't even see frustration as necessarily a "negative" emotion. It depends on what you do with it that makes it negative or positive. If it makes you try harder, then I see that as a positive emotion. It drove you on to work harder and get it right. If you shut down and refuse to keep trying, then it becomes negative.
I don't see it as a bad thing either - we need a certain amount of stress/frustration - as that's what drives us to do better. We don't need somebody slapping us across our face telling us to pull our socks up
Kerryowner
Dogsey Veteran
Kerryowner is offline  
Location: Norwich UK
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,795
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:30 PM
I wonder what he will do regards training if (hopefully) e-collars get banned in the UK?
wilbar
Dogsey Veteran
wilbar is offline  
Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
I don't even see frustration as necessarily a "negative" emotion. It depends on what you do with it that makes it negative or positive. If it makes you try harder, then I see that as a positive emotion. It drove you on to work harder and get it right. If you shut down and refuse to keep trying, then it becomes negative.

It's much like anger. If you lash out and hurt someone, it's negative. If you decide to get a grassroots movement going to make some change to something because you were angry about it, then you're acting in a positive way.
Yep, I can completely agree with that

And it probably only takes a few attempts at not succeeding, so not getting the reward, but trying harder/different things & ultimately succeeding in getting the reward, before the dog learns "ok, I'll try again, or slightly differently because last time it worked", then the frustration part is alleviated & the dog's succeeded.

In my experience, it's the dogs that have been trained in the past by using pos pun that are far more likely to stop trying at all & just give up, or perhaps that the reward of doing the unwanted behaviour is higher than reward the trainer is offering ~ but then that's the trainer's fault, not the dog's.
Dobermann
Dogsey Veteran
Dobermann is offline  
Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Wilbar/Crysania - also, if the frustration (example) lasts two attemps and the last one they 'get it' there isnt anything better than seeing how chuffed with themselves they are too

(with +R) I suppose its a bit like a puzzle is for us you can sit for an hour looking for the right word in a crossword/wordsearch - then you look at it differently and suddenly youve got it. Frustration isnt always a bad thing at all. It only becomes a bad thing when the owner 'badgers' them with the same way constantly and blames the dog and it turns into negative then?
Crysania
Dogsey Veteran
Crysania is offline  
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Yep, I can completely agree with that

And it probably only takes a few attempts at not succeeding, so not getting the reward, but trying harder/different things & ultimately succeeding in getting the reward, before the dog learns "ok, I'll try again, or slightly differently because last time it worked", then the frustration part is alleviated & the dog's succeeded.
Yep! Even my dog, who was trained all through using lure/reward is starting to get this. I'm teaching her touch (with her nose) and I hold out my hand, say "touch." And I just keep it there. She'll try a myriad of things, including sticking a paw on my hand or sitting pretty, but usually the third time is sticking her nose into my hand. Tada! Treat! When I hold it back out, lo and behold, the first thing she does is shove her nose into my hand. Learning has begun!

Each time I up the ante (moving the hand to other places or further away), she goes through a short period of frustration as she tries to figure out what I want and then BAM! Gets it. Her excitement over getting her reward and the praise from me is obvious.
Crysania
Dogsey Veteran
Crysania is offline  
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
Wilbar/Crysania - also, if the frustration (example) lasts two attemps and the last one they 'get it' there isnt anything better than seeing how chuffed with themselves they are too
LOL I just said nearly the same thing about my dog! She's so thrilled when she gets it right. And I don't think it's just about the treat because sometimes she forgets to get it right away and starts to wiggle about like "I DID IT YAY!!"
wilbar
Dogsey Veteran
wilbar is offline  
Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
Wilbar/Crysania - also, if the frustration (example) lasts two attemps and the last one they 'get it' there isnt anything better than seeing how chuffed with themselves they are too

(with +R) I suppose its a bit like a puzzle is for us you can sit for an hour looking for the right word in a crossword/wordsearch - then you look at it differently and suddenly youve got it. Frustration isnt always a bad thing at all. It only becomes a bad thing when the owner 'badgers' them with the same way constantly and blames the dog and it turns into negative then?
I like your crossword analogy very much My OH is a crossword fanatic (the difficult cryptic Times ones ) but his enjoyment of finding that last clue, & the thought he puts into it all day, are so worth the effort & "frustration", if you like, of not getting it right immediately.

If you're good at something & have succeeded by trial & error in the past, then a new challenge can be a very enjoyable experience. Anyone with a dog that has learned to enjoy clicker training will tell you the same thing
Dobermann
Dogsey Veteran
Dobermann is offline  
Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
LOL I just said nearly the same thing about my dog! She's so thrilled when she gets it right. And I don't think it's just about the treat because sometimes she forgets to get it right away and starts to wiggle about like "I DID IT YAY!!"
I can imagine, mine goes 'bendy' in the middle and the little 'stump' (AKA tail) goes 10 to the dozen then its like - what next, what next
wilbar
Dogsey Veteran
wilbar is offline  
Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
LOL I just said nearly the same thing about my dog! She's so thrilled when she gets it right. And I don't think it's just about the treat because sometimes she forgets to get it right away and starts to wiggle about like "I DID IT YAY!!"
That's fantastic That's what learning's all about!! And people think that clicker training is all about stuffing a dog full of food, or bribery ~ tommy rot ~ it's about having fun, being successful, gaining confidence, knowing that it's fun to try. Your dog sounds lovely & clearly is enjoying the whole process
Dobermann
Dogsey Veteran
Dobermann is offline  
Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
Female 
 
01-03-2011, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
I like your crossword analogy very much My OH is a crossword fanatic (the difficult cryptic Times ones ) but his enjoyment of finding that last clue, & the thought he puts into it all day, are so worth the effort & "frustration", if you like, of not getting it right immediately.

If you're good at something & have succeeded by trial & error in the past, then a new challenge can be a very enjoyable experience. Anyone with a dog that has learned to enjoy clicker training will tell you the same thing
This is why I think dogs that are 'corrected' constantly as a way of training without the positive reinforcement 'shut off' and just dont want to keep trying. They dont know that a 'not getting it right' dosnt mean 'bad' if you know what I mean? I think if they get +R and their behaviours shaped etc etc they know that if they keep trying they will get something good at some point. Quite sad really that some dont......clicker is great!!

Ive got a dog that isnt exactly the most 'foody' but still likes it because he's 'being told its good/right'

edit - even without a clicker, I like to think of it as being a child when you play a game of 'hot or cold' where your blindfolded and have to find something, your told when your getting hotter or colder - otherwise how would you find the hidden object?

So even using my voice 'a-a' means 'not quite' and 'good' is getting hotter....

'a-a' isnt a bad/no/correction its just a 'thats not what Im asking for' (or perhaps a 'that wont get me cheese/toy this time' lol)
Closed Thread
Page 6 of 22 « First < 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 16 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top