That's a really interesting way to do it. I like the comparison aspect! Dogs can certainly feel anxious when scolded a lot (the infamous "he feels guilty!" claim and all) and it's probably good for all of us involved in training to feel a little bit of what it's like to be the dog in a positive reinforcement and positive punishment situation.

I've dealt with it by having two very different clarinet teachers. One always told me what I was doing right, was very encouraging, and in "corrections" was very kind. He would tell me what I was doing well and what (and how) to improve it. I learned so much under him and went very far as a clarinetist.

Then at college I had a teacher who was all positive punishment. He wouldn't ever tell me what I did right, he berated me for everything I did wrong, he told me that I would never make it unless I could do XYZ. He was nasty to me. I was so anxious every time I touched the instrument that I was incredibly tense.

I ultimately got tendinitis and carpal tunnel and had to quit playing.

Now which teacher would YOU have wanted to study with?

Great analogy. Have you read "Coercion & its Fallout" by Murray Sidman ~ it points out all of the pitfalls of using punishment/neg reinforcement & all of the benefits of using pos reinforcement. Nobody's saying that we can or should ALWAYS use pos reinforcement, unfortunately life's not like that & we all experience punishment in life & learn from it. But given the choice we'd all choose your nice clarinet teacher wouldn't we

I've done something similar on a clicker training course too. We were paired up, with one of us blindfolded & the other "guiding" the blindfolded person around obstacles, using nothing other than verbal praise (i.e. not allowed to say left a bit or right a bit etc, only to say "yes, well done" or similar.) The second time the person guiding wasn't allowed to say anything when the blindfolded person went in the right direction, but only to say "bad girl, naughty" etc in a cross voice if you went in the wrong direction.

I can tell you in all honesty that the emotional feeling with the praise was completely different from the emotions when you were scolded! There were no shock collars, no physical restraint or handling, nothing other than "yes, good" in a happy voice or "no, bad" in a grumpy voice. The praise made me feel that it was good to try & to keep trying, I wasn't scared, I trusted the person guiding me & it was a great achievement & feeling when we got to the end of the obstacle course ~ all in all, a positive experience I'd be happy to repeat.

But with the verbal telling off it was a very very different feeling. I felt anxious, hesitant, distrustful towards the person guiding me, I hated the experience & ended up just feeling huge relief that it was all over at the end of the course.

There was no e-collar involved, no physical pain, no difference at all really, other than the fact that praise was given for going in the right direction, OR, a scolding was given for going in the wrong direction. Perhaps I'm a whimp, or can't take a telling off, but this really brought home to me the difference in learning through pos reinforcement or through punishment ~ a huge emotional difference & feeling about the whole learning process.

Now exaggerate that a thousand times by giving me an electric shock instead of a verbal scolding & I can't begin to imagine how I'd feel . So not in a million years would I ever ever use an e-collar (or pain of any kind) to train a dog!

Adam ~ I dare you to practice what you preach!! Put the ecollar on yourself & allow a Dogsey member to "stim" you in the same way as above & video it for the rest of us to see!!! Are you up for it?

I'm up for it-----and he can clicker and reward me.

No problem!

rune

Sadly I dont believe Adam will change his mind re the use of e-collars,he has had more than enough people both argue,debate,disagree,disprove and dissaprove his methods and still he will not accept the facts that e-collars are cruel and inhumane. Why? on forum after forum he has continued despite receiving zero support for his "training" methods. I can only presume he has some severe mental disorder which prevents him from accepting he is 100% wrong. Only when shock collars are banned nationally will Adam and those of his ilk stop torturing and abusing dogs.

Adam ~ I dare you to practice what you preach!! Put the ecollar on yourself & allow a Dogsey member to "stim" you in the same way as above & video it for the rest of us to see!!! Are you up for it?

Isn't that what extreme sociopaths do? They 'act' what they need to in front of people and say what they think they should say etc but only really with a means to finding their own end...they are on their own self professing mission....they are unable to feel in the same way as others, they lack empathy as part of their being. They can act emotion but are realised through the slip ups that prove they have no emotional connection to other beings etc.

Many serial killers also have these traits.

They can all handle the stim, thats why the levels adjustable.

Adam

I understand from a reliable source that Adam boasts in another place '' I immediately corrected her with both collars at top level'' so lets not skimp with one collar, lets have two at top level.
I guess they would have to be around the neck but I know from previous pictures posted on Dogsey some e collar users prefer to position the collars near to the genitals so that would be my preferred choice. I am sure Adam will agree after all he thinks they don't cause any pain or discomfort so we can only assume they work by magic don't they Adam.

He could do it to raise money for a dog charity.