Yep,

For the record, I do feel that if people stopped line breeding to formula and outcrossed within breeds now, using global options where needed we may get out of this mess. Outbreeding is only for those in real trouble...not sure if PWack is making that clear. By dithering we may well wind up with PW's scenario in some breeds sooner than we think.

Mary

PW dont see why you should have to justify what dogs you have - those who dont rescue dont seem to have to!

However we do seem to be taking this off topic so maybe we should start a new discussion about why, apparently, we should only be rescueing difficult cross breeds?

Not sure why hybrid vigour is associated with healthy crossbreeding.

Surely to warrant being a Hybrid , is to cross two species together??? Horse +Donkey= Mule

Here are a couple of articles...I dont know their source, but , easy reading.

http://home.comcast.net/~nopuppymill...rid_vigor.html

http://home.comcast.net/~nopuppymill...d_Hybrid_Vigor



Mary my references are from talking to people, looking and researching pedigrees

Sorry dont have any official research...

I am assuming your 20+ references will be data, not pedigree??

Looking at my own for instance ,I have a 5 gen pedigree, can also look back on the ggg/parents, and not find any close relation matings...i.e b/s, f/d

You will find some matador breding, but this goes with the territory I am afraid, popular/successful sires will be seen somewhere down the line on both sides of a pedigree

Obviously if you go far enough back in a pedigree , you will find inbreeding, but that is who we make a breed.



I think there may be a misunderstanding here... (well for me anyway) as tho the interpretation of "out crossing"

I am guessing from what I hi-lighted, you mean be bring new blood of the same breed, from different countries!!!

If that is what you mean, yes I agree, it is and has been beneficial.... it goes without saying that any outcross, should be screened for potential problems....as sadly some of the problems we see in our UK breeds have been brought in by just that.

But deliberately out crossing to another breed, I just dont see the logic to it.

It then get it back to its original breed, with new genes added, you would have to then go down the route of inbreeding to get back to type.

I think PW has made it perfectly clear, when she means out crossing she means xbreeding two breeds..

Cant find it know , but did she not suggest adding springer blood to something????

That is out crossing, it is X breeding!!!!

just thought I would add.... I have also had three rescues!
and helped home many more...

I think the TV programme has opend up a great opertunity for good quality breeders

It has now become clear that line breeding and in breeding goes on, and it seems to go on far too much
and that is causing some health problems and having us on a ticking time bomb for the future

But the public is now aware of it

So breeders who already do not inbreed can let the public know what they are doing - and the now more informed public can make the choice to buy a better dog

and of course it has raised the bar for what an etical breeder is
Health checks are importand but now not the be all and end all, if someone truly loves their breed and only wants to breed to improve their breed then health comes before looks, before winning at shows
and so they need to think harder about the stud they use - so they can increase the genetic deversity in their breed rather than decrease it
I am sure in many breeds there are enough dogs out there of the same breed that this can be done
if that means you have to travel further - so be it - you are trying to improve your breed - not just to make money and have dogs that win in the show ring - I think this programme has shown that winning dogs are not ness the breed improvment that breeders should be striving for

I think this is a great time to save so many of the pedigrees that people love so much. If we dont do it now and carry on letting people in/line breed then it is possible that these dogs will be in real trouble in the future

I know there are some really endangered breeds
But I dont think line breeding is the answer - it is not saving the breed just postponing the demise of the breed
Experts need to get in NOW and asses if there is enough genetic deversity to keep the breed going - and if there is then plan a v strict breeding programme to keep the breed alive and move it towards a more healthy future
If there is not then the choice is either to find suitble dogs to outcross to and then v careful breeding or, sadly to realise we have made a mess of a breed and let it pass with dingity and learn from our mistakes with other breeds

PW I cannot give you reppies at the moment till I pass more out - but great posts
She is against people breeding more dogs when therre are so many in rescue
what is wrong with that?? if she had got her dogs from breeders then she would deserve the slating
she has supported rescue and not given money to the breeders
so she prefers pedigrees - isnt that a great sign to all you pedigree breeders out there?? Most people want a pedigree breed - so if you breed well there will always be a market for your dogs

Me personaly, I disagree with people making money out of life, so it would be v unlikely I would find someone breeding dogs who ticks all my boxes, and if I did they wouldnt consider giving a dog to me so at the moment I will continue to rescue
pedigree, x breed, dosent matter to me - its the dog that chooses me!

we know honestly we do!

so anyone on this forum who bought dogs from a breeder deserves slating?

yes she homes them... but she doesnt support good breeders

Yes?

all of the above has me confused... its a bit self contradictory is it not?

I dont understand why you feel a breeder would refuse you one of there dogs? yet a rescue wouldnt. Do you feel breeders have higher criteria for homing dogs than rescue?
just a bit confused again.

ETA; as you have only had a rescue dog ben...which is great... but do you feel your view is more one sided.. eg as a rescue dog owner.. you have not yet had to deal with breeders as such?

Hi Jackie

Most canine geneticists would agree that 10 generations or as many as possible is what you need to be looking at so most paper peds won't give you enough info.

A lot of the stuff I mention is paraphrasing information found here:
http://www.canine-genetics.com/
some of the articles are trickier than others. The research is based on pedigrees and dogs and the source is quoted where relevent. No of it is too tricky, some is very easy and has been written for lay breeders. The problem with your link is the source for me, I can't verify it.. The info I am posting is based on years of research by those who are specialists in their field.

About outcrossing/outbreeding. Perhaps we should all stop using the term as a stand-alone word since there is so much confusion LOL!

Mary

Its interesting but can we put this somewhere else...its diverged and this thread is long enough anyway ?

I understand that, I did I did not think it was reseach based... but I found it interesting to read, but it was only one link I found.