Hi

May I please ask a question? How do you know if a dog is born an alpha male? I assume it's some type of behaviour that the dog exhibits?

Thanks.

No ! That would be very disrespectful ! However, Hal being Hal ... I need not elucidate, suffice to say he only did it once !

Your example on the child at the firework party is a good one, because with humans we not only are influenced by our alpha male and female, otherwise known as our parents, we also have the phenomenon of mass hysteria to deal with as well. So, even if Mum stays as cool as a cucumber, if all around her are screaming in fear at the fireworks, will her child then be scared? The answer is yes, but the cool, calmness of her authoritative mother should be enough to persuade her that there is nothing to fear.

Gnasher, the Super Leader !! I like that !! Sadly, untrue though, but I do try !!

Now here's an interesting thought. Do wolves and dogs have mass hysteria? Or is this is a purely human phenomenon? I am thinking Lemmings here ? Sorry, this is going off thread, but it is an interesting thought.

As for my dog picking up on human mass hysteria? Certainly not, Hal was far too cool to do that. he would have let all the humans panic and rush off, and then would have gone round sniffing the seats that they had vacated, one of his least desirable but favourite pastimes ! Tai would have gone round sniffing to see if the panicked humans had left behind any tasty scraps ! The difference between an alpha and a beta maybe !!

Yes I think so, got it now!

I see where you are coming from but he's still not a dog expert and it annoys me he is apparently trying to be one. He may or may not know about wolves (that's another debate ) but to then start giving advice based on what we know from science, is an incorrect way to live with our dogs is not fair.
It's short changing owners and dogs.
(I know you disagree Gnasher but ... )

I don't dislike him from what I've seen (only on tv) but would seriously disagree with him giving advice on how to live with dogs Was it him who was on the programme the other night about living with animals - someone was giving advice on guarding food from the nearby dogs using body language - if it was him, then frankly I have to say, he's an idiot. If it wasn't him, then I will take that back obviously!

Wys
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Good point Tassle, but this was at a Northern Inuit and Utonagan meet. In the case of wolfy breeds (such as Mals, Huskies etc.) he takes on board their palpable differences.

Good point though !

Agree with your post Mini, nice one

Wys
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But no dog is born an alpha.
I totally disagree with Ellis and so do a huge number of behaviourists out there, who have a lot more experience of dogs than he does!

(Of course David Mech states that alpha means to be a parent really, and if given enough time, space etc all wolves will eventually become an alpha in that sense only).

Also if he was an alpha in the sense of the word often used, you'd have had to physically fight with him as he would have seen you and your husband as usurpers, or would you disagree? There would have been a fight for hierarchy if the model as perceived by alpha supporters is correct.

Wys
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You haven't answered my question though Promethean ! I would love to hear your explanation.

I honestly cannot think of anything that Hal was scared of. Obviously, he would be terrified of all the extreme things such as fire, I am talking about normal, every day occurrences, such as sirens, thunder, lightening, guns etc. He stood up to a charging flock of tups, very aggressive bullocks that had surrounded him in my parent's field, a savage attack when he was on his chain by next door's Airedale, who was larger and more powerful than him, ditto a GSD, ditto a rottweiler cross who scalped him, I have never seen him scared of anything ... except for thunder and fireworks, caused entirely by me.

Lose my alpha status? Kill me? No, of course not, that is exactly the point I am making ! BECAUSE I was alpha female, this is why he became so scared of the thunder and fireworks ! I had to teach him not to be scared. He WAS genuinely petrified, because I had shown such intense fear. Totally my fault, but at that time I really couldn't help it.

It sounds funny but it's actually a good point. The true alpha pair are only the breeding pair, so if you and Hal were alpha ... well, I won't go on....

Wys
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Gnasher, I'm not sure if we've done this or not but can you describe exactly what you believe about the alpha status?

I get the impression you sometimes use it as a word (ie as many of us might say "leader" or "parent" ) but sometimes you seem to attach more importance to it, which is when I believe it clashes with the science that we now know and it can be confusing.

If you could just clarify it would help, thanks

Wys
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I absolutely agree Wys, there are a lot of people who disagree with Shaun, but I just happen not to be one of them ! He has a very interesting theory that the position in the womb determines whether or not a dog or bitch will be an alpha. I cannot remember exactly the in's and out's of this, but I think his theory is that the nearest to the neck of the womb a puppy can be for as much of the pregnancy as possible, the more likely that pup will be an alpha. I may have got that wrong, I will have to ask him, but it was something along these lines.

Alphas don't fight unless they absolutely have to. In a wolf pack, the alpha male lolls around most of the time having fun. It is the Beta Enforcers who do all the fighting. The same with an alpha dog. Hal very very rarely, if ever started a fight. But my goodness, he attracted trouble with a capital T. He was always being attacked, never by bitches, but by other male dogs, usually entire, but not always. He just ducked and weaved, looked bored and kept out of trouble, although as he got older he would defend himself if things were getting a bit troublesome. He liked to saved all his energy for sex ! He wasn't interested in food, or fighting.