Originally Posted by
ClaireandDaisy
Kruse - I hesitate to enter Adam`s little world of twisted logic tbh. One ends up like the oozalem bird - flying in ever decreasing circles till it disappears up its own fundament.
To me, reward based learning goes like this:
A dog performs an action. No stress
The dog finds that action has pleasurable consequences. No stress
The dog repeats the action and the reward is again received. No stress.
The dog eventually associates that action with pleasure.
Where`s the stress?
I was taught: Get the action. Reward the action. Label the action.
The association weakens if the pleasure is not occasionally reinforced. There is no stress.
I don`t think Adam understands training. He mistakes training for luring perhaps?
no argument from me Clair.
i already have that position.
i was specifically asking if any else didnt get the meaning of my specific post above?
which leads me to.....
Originally Posted by
Dobermann
I dont want to get into an argument or 'take sides' etc but I think what you are saying is that Adam thinks the stress of waiting on a treat is equal to that of a shock from a shock collar? You are saying that actually, if excitement takes over the stress, then it isnt? because they feel the excitement not stress?
I think you both missed out the point that one carries a potentially physical
pain that the other dosnt.
....it seems i do owe Adam an explanation after all, as doberman doesnt understand my post either.
Hi Dobie.
I am indeed saying that Adam says that the stress of waiting on a treat is equal to that of a shock collar.
Because that is indeed what he said on the ecollar thread.
However, the latter part of your post is not what i am saying at all.
No offence dobie, my bad.
That was the point of this thread.
So as Adam asked me to explain again, here goes:
Adam says the dog feels stress as he has to wait to get his reward (toy, treat, play, whatever).
He has to do so because he has to perform the behaviour first.
Adam cited a recall as an occasion the dog feels stressed.
Adam says he is stressed all the way back to you, as he doesnt get his treat straight away.
Adam goes on to say that this stress is equal to the stress a dog feels from an ecollar.
(
As a side note, it is interesting to point out that Adam now admits that dogs feel stress from ecollars. Im not to sure if he noticed that )
Anyway, we would then all ask Adam how come the reward traned dog looks happy when it is charging up to up to you on a recall, for example?
Adam states this is because the excitement..ie, the expectation of receiving the reward...masks the stress signs.
Adam would then say this is why you can see the stress signs when ecollar training, but not reward training.
I state that this is a convenient get out clause.
I also state, like everyone else, that this is clearly not logic, sense, or a basic understanding of emotion.
So i gave an analogy:
I might be gagging all night for santa to bring me a present.
That may technically be labelled stress, but it is clearly "good stress". As it is related to the joy and pleasure of expecting something nice.
Therefore it is 'stress' associated with nice warm feelings inside, which naturally isnt the same as the associated feelings of foreboding and fear i may feel knowing i am about to receive an electric shock!
And that IS all the 'argument' you really need to know!
However, here was the point of my post that Adam and others may have misunderstood:
I then went on to play devils' advocate, and said lets assume for a moment that adam's argument is right.
What i am saying is that adam's very own argument disproves his theory!
That is because thus:
a) the dog runs for the treat but does not
'show' the stress, as the 'feelings' of excitment/joy/pleasure of expecting something masks the
'feelings' of stress
b) the dog gets an ecollar stim (what we call electric shock), and
does show the stress, as his dog jacca did in the video.
Now, and this is the biggeee:
If we assume that both dogs are feeling stressed, then surely the stress the "reward dog" feels is way lower than what the "ecollar dog" feels, otherwise the ecollar dog would be feeling enough happiness/excitement/expectation to also mask his stress signs!
Obviously he doesnt, as he is not happy with his expectation of an event as the reward dog is.
ie, he is not happy knowing an electric shock is due!
And therein layeth the irony of Adam's own argument, which he has missed.
Therefore, you dont need to rely on our argument stating why the expectation of someting good is not the 'suffering of stress' etc etc.
As adam has done the job for us!
Originally Posted by
IsoChick
In humans, there is stress - good stress and bad stress.
Bad stress is, for example, getting caught speeding, losing your job, having an accident etc
However, some causes of stress are ultimately pleasurable - getting married, moving house, working towards and meeting a deadline, completing a sporting challenge etc.
Surely the waiting and excitement of reward based training is 'good stress'; as something good will ultimately come from it?
precisely!