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Elaine
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02-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Mish you are talking about training, as far as I am concerned Adam isn't he is talking about the use of e collars and for me they don't come under the category of training, they come under the category of dog abuse .
I so totally agree!!!!

I have read this thread and commented earlier. It is beyond all my believe, thoughts and reasoning as to WHY??????? any self respecting human being with an ounce of compassion would want to electrocute their dog to "train" it.......

I sincerely hope and pray any one reading this thread would never use this barbaric "training aid". It IS dog abuse.

When these instruments of torture are banned, and they will be, what will "he" do then, I wonder......????
Krusewalker
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02-12-2010, 03:41 PM
hello guys. I posted the post below on the ecollar thread to respond to adam's odd assertion that reward training (ie, the expectation of the reward not received until the behaviour has been performed) causes stress equal to ecollar training.
Aside from the obvious lack of logic or sense in that idea, i found a hole in adam's own argument itself.

Now i figured i had identified and explained that well in the post below, but adam responded with interpretations that had nothing to do with what i wrote and claimed my post wasnt understandable.

I figured that was convenient, but i have given it some thought, and to be fair, i thought i would check this out by starting a thread asking the question:

Does everyone else understand what i am getting at in my post quoted below?
(feel free to give your interpretation)


Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
Adam

You take the line that the time the dog takes to get his treat is 'the suffering of stress'. And go on to say that is equal to the stress displayed by e collar training.

Now, if im excited and waiting for my dinner, true, it may raise my levels and be technically regarded as stress.
That relates to the sense of expectation, like santa at xmas.
But to say that is comparable to the stress i would receive from an electic shock and that i am 'suffering' is pushing the bounds of credibility somewhat.

It is a disingenuous argument.

However, let us assume your line is right and lets run with it.
You are saying that excitement over treats/toys masks the stress signs, which is why you see them on your e collar video but not in a treat training scenario (convenient get out clause their, btw ).

Then you own argument surely comes back to bite you?
If both experiences are unpleasant 'sufferings of stress' (my phrase) (btw, the implication is you are now admitting that the ecollar experience is an unpleasant suffering of stress), then if you scale it, surely the ecollar one is way worse?
As you say, the excitment (ie, positive joyous feelings associated with the expectation of getting food or play) is high enough to mask the stress signs the dog is really feeling.
Yet the ecollar one obviously cannot have a high enough level of joy/ pleasure/ excitement to motivate the dog to suppress his stress signs!
This means he cannot be overawed at the expectation of getting an electric zap!

Hence the irony of you own argument, which you are missing.
ClaireandDaisy
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02-12-2010, 03:50 PM
Kruse - I hesitate to enter Adam`s little world of twisted logic tbh. One ends up like the oozalem bird - flying in ever decreasing circles till it disappears up its own fundament.

To me, reward based learning goes like this:
A dog performs an action. No stress
The dog finds that action has pleasurable consequences. No stress
The dog repeats the action and the reward is again received. No stress.
The dog eventually associates that action with pleasure.
Where`s the stress?

I was taught: Get the action. Reward the action. Label the action.

The association weakens if the pleasure is not occasionally reinforced. There is no stress.

I don`t think Adam understands training. He mistakes training for luring perhaps?
Dobermann
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02-12-2010, 03:53 PM
I dont want to get into an argument or 'take sides' etc but I think what you are saying is that Adam thinks the stress of waiting on a treat is equal to that of a shock from a shock collar? You are saying that actually, if excitement takes over the stress, then it isnt? because they feel the excitement not stress?

I think you both missed out the point that one carries a potentially physical pain that the other dosnt.
Dobermann
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02-12-2010, 03:58 PM
He mistakes training for luring perhaps?

There are times when luring is only helping them understand what to do though and then they get the reward for the action. So even at that....compared to zapping them just for doing the wrong thing, or for not doing something.


I'd rather my dog wanted to be with me than thought he better as everything else is painful. Dogs have a brain and should be able to use it.
ClaireandDaisy
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02-12-2010, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
There are times when luring is only helping them understand what to do though and then they get the reward for the action. So even at that....compared to zapping them just for doing the wrong thing, or for not doing something.
Agreed. But luring is only used to obtain the action a few times till the dog `gets` it. There is no anticipation (therefore no stress) because the dog is merely following the food. Nothing is required of the dog except that he reaches a position where he can eat the food.
When the necessary repetions have been done, the cue word or label learned (i.e. the action is captured) then the treat is discontinued because the action is the right thing to do when the dog hears that word. Therefore the action is self rewarding.
(Yes, the feelgood factor does wear off but that is why we reward intermittently to reinforce the action)
Inexperienced trainers don`t understand how a dog learns - they seem to think a reward is a negotiation.
Dobermann
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02-12-2010, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Agreed. But luring is only used to obtain the action a few times till the dog `gets` it. There is no anticipation (therefore no stress) because the dog is merely following the food. Nothing is required of the dog except that he reaches a position where he can eat the food.
When the necessary repetions have been done, the cue word or label learned (i.e. the action is captured) then the treat is discontinued because the action is the right thing to do when the dog hears that word. Therefore the action is self rewarding.
(Yes, the feelgood factor does wear off but that is why we reward intermittently to reinforce the action)
Inexperienced trainers don`t understand how a dog learns - they seem to think a reward is a negotiation.
Claire, I agree with all that, I supppose what I'm saying is that even if he does think its luring to train, then how can the stress level be compared to anticipating pain and living in fear of putting a 'foot wrong' even once a behaviour has been learned (re: shock collar)



And who came up with the stress scale, Adam?
IsoChick
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02-12-2010, 04:48 PM
In humans, there is stress - good stress and bad stress.

Bad stress is, for example, getting caught speeding, losing your job, having an accident etc

However, some causes of stress are ultimately pleasurable - getting married, moving house, working towards and meeting a deadline, completing a sporting challenge etc.

Surely the waiting and excitement of reward based training is 'good stress'; as something good will ultimately come from it?
Dobermann
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02-12-2010, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by IsoChick View Post
In humans, there is stress - good stress and bad stress.

Bad stress is, for example, getting caught speeding, losing your job, having an accident etc

However, some causes of stress are ultimately pleasurable - getting married, moving house, working towards and meeting a deadline, completing a sporting challenge etc.

Surely the waiting and excitement of reward based training is 'good stress'; as something good will ultimately come from it?
With positive training, I think so, even if they get stressed because they are not getting something then the handler just needs to take it back a step and reward them for something they can do and then keep working on it? Baby steps get further than big ones. To keep it fun and keep their confidence and enthusiasm up surley.

Where as I would think that if they seem excited to do something when being trained by a shock collar, they really just want to get it over with and make sure its right so there isnt a negative outcome, that would be a horrible pressure and stress to carry.

I dont want to get involved in peoples disputes, as it were, thats just some of my simple thoughts on the matter
maxine
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02-12-2010, 05:02 PM
I felt the message in the post was clear to those who wanted to understand it. A good deal of effort has now gone into discussing ecollars with AP and promoting alternatives. Perhaps he is now "shutting down" in the face of overwhelming evidence and logic that conflicts with his argument.

We all need a certain amount of stress or our lives would just be a flat line, but there is good stress and bad stress. The anticipation of getting a treat in dogs is good stress, just as doing a stimulating job you enjoy and feel you do well is good stress. These produce a confident person or dog who feels in control and able to succeed and obtain the associated rewards.

Feeling overwhelmed at work is bad stress just as the fear of being zapped is bad stress. Both of these can produce a sense of helplessness and unpleasant behavioural/mental health side effects.

It's not rocket science is it?
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