Just spotted this Patch in one of your postings: (Sorreee ... this is NOT an Attack Patch Day ... just picked up on it and cannot let it go !)

Wolves do not pin - unless its with intent to kill

O yes they do !! The alpha male and/or female will do just this to exert discipline, to warn or threaten. A wolf jaw can exert some horribly huge amount of pressure ... can't remember what it is, but I have a feeling it is 2,000 lbs pressure per square inch? They know just how much pressure to exert without permanent damage or death. We met Shaun Ellis, the wolf man, at one of his lectures last year, and he enthralled his audience telling us how to interpret our dog's body language, social structure etc. etc. He described how an alpha male ... or a male who thinks he's alpha in the human pack, or thinks he is a high ranking beta ready to take over ... will "clip" you. This entails the dog running straight at you at top speed, swerving at the very last minute, in order to intimidate you. Hal used to do this, and it was very unnerving to say the least. You HAD to stand your ground without flinching and face up to him. (Otherwise the old git would have thought he was superior, and that would NEVER HAVE DONE ! ) He would always swerve at the last minute of course, but it took some bottle I tell you to have 65 pounds of husky cross mal come pounding at you like that!

Pinning is usually if not always done by the throat ... with just enough pressure exerted not to do any damage, but the threat is there

Then you would likely find the dog being reclaimed from you. If you adopt from a good rescue you would have to sign a contract and that contract will stipulate neuter is to be done by the adopter if the dog could not be done for a good reason before rehoming.
Fail to adhere to the legally binding contract and you will face losing the dog because of that breach, simple as that.
If a rescue does`nt have a neuter policy then I would question their very status as a rescue quite frankly.

I think you would find that works both ways, an ethical breeder would refuse to sell to someone who is not prepared to adhere to a contract.

Looking at bullet points of things you have said to put them in brief :

You have had a sort of ownership of a BC, and you consider yourself well equipped to home `any` BC, [ in a nutshell ],

you have had a Husky [ or Husky cross ], and so you feel you are more qualified about them than people who have been in the breed for years having owned and worked many of them,

you are not vastly experienced with rescues but have rescued five dogs, [ not from rescue orgs presumably ],

and you have said you would adopt an otherwise unhomeable dog because you feel you have the experience which a very `difficult` dog would need based on watching CM on telly or DVD and applying it to one dog.

I don`t want to sound patronising, I really don`t, but....

Oooo sarky Patch! You have to remember that I am VERY OLD !! The first dog I ever adopted was back in 1976. We didn't have contracts then, in fact, I rescued the dog ... a gorgeous german shorthaired pointer crossed lab ... from the local rescue society in Liphook, near where I lived at the time. From memory ... and it is a HECK of a long time ago ... I don't recall even signing a piece of paper, let alone a contract ! The second rescue was a pure german shorthaired pointer, and ditto the comments aforementioned.

Patch, let me ask you one question. Have you ever owned a husky, a northern breed of any sort? If you had, believe me, you would understand what I am talking about. Experience does not necessarily come from length of time you know. You were not blessed to know Hal, but if you had, you would have been impressed to say the least with my dog training skills !! I will not go into the details, in respect of his memory, but my darling boy was very difficult! The experience I have gained from being priviliged enough to have known him is absolutely NOTHING to do with CM. I did not even hear of CM until Hal was nearly 9 years old. All I am saying is that CM's methods once I HAD discovered him using calm, assertive energy worked wonders with an extremely difficult dog and I wish I had "met" CM before. The icing on the cake if you like. Although, had I used his calm assertive methods right from the start with Hal, I would not have struggled nearly as much as I did.

Your patronising attitude is beginning to get up my nose. I am really trying to be nice and polite, but it is hard. Please don't be so sarcastic, it isn't nice.

you said: and you have said you would adopt an otherwise unhomeable dog because you feel you have the experience which a very `difficult` dog would need based on watching CM on telly or DVD and applying it to one dog.

I NEVER said that !!

I did`nt call you a petulant child, I said that Borderdawn isn`t one :smt001


If I were a bully I don`t think I would have been as polite as I have been

No one has discussed American Politics :smt017

Ah, like calling someone `a big mean Cyber Bully` ?

No, they are not the `satan of dog owners`, just a bit misguided thats all

No, you have, [ deliberately ], looked for something that is`nt there. I mentioned that CM was an illegal immigrant `made good`, thats fact, simple as that :smt102

How is that `anti-American` or `politics` on my part ?

I`m well aware of what the forum is for - and its not for people to flit in to abuse as a personal battleground.

You previously suggested that you would adopt an entire dog and would basically refuse to neuter that dog regardless because you `wont be told you have to do it` - I was trying to point out that if you did falsely sign an adoption contract which stipulated neuter which you had no intent to adhere to then you could lose the dog.

Oh yes there are.
Gnasher you do not know every dogs psyche, yes there are indeed some dogs which can`t go offlead for one reason or another. It does`nt mean they can never run, just that they would either need to be on a longline, which when properly used gives the dog the freedom to run without feeling restricted but keeps that dog safe from harm should it be necessary, or they can run off lead and off longline in a secure area.
It does`nt mean keeping such dogs on a short lead at walking pace for their whole lives.

Getting angry about it does`nt change the fact that if you went to a good rescue which stipulates what must not be done to the dogs then that`s how it must be, a rescue dog from a good Org remains the property of that Org, you would be the caretaker of THEIR dog.

In your opinion, but you are not the one running the rescue`s and clearing up other peoples messes day in day out, year after year.

You bred from a crossbreed did you not ? I`ll say no more on that, this is not the right thread for it.

The context was entirely correct, you said you won`t have a rescue tell you how to treat `your` dog that you might adopt, I pointed out examples in a contract of stipulations regarding `training/treatment` of a dog under such a contract.
Now you say you would be happy to sign a contract stating those things must not be used which contradicts your previous statement that no one can tell you how you should or should`nt treat an adopted dog.
Which is it please
If you adopted by the way, and agreed never to use those things then found yourself in a " very extreme case in a life or death situation ", then you should contact the rescue for help, not just decide to ignore a contract and get an extreme device for something you find yourself out of depth about.

One difficult dog is not going to be the same as the next difficult dog, they are individuals, you simply can not say that having one difficult dog, [ aside, temperament is supposed to be considered before breeding is it not ...? ], means you are for evermore equipped to deal with every other difficult dog, the reality just is`nt like that.

If you adopt from a good rescue then yes you will have them telling you that and they will make sure its done or can reclaim the dog.
If you don`t agree with a rescues policy or an ethical breeders endorsements, fine, go to a pound or back yard breeder or puppy farm or bloke in the pub, those don`t give two hoots about the dogs they send out to people who think they know better than all the good rescues which deal with thousands of dogs or the ethical breeders who do everything possible to make sure their pups don`t end up in rescue or be the cause of other pups which might end up in one :smt102

Rubbish, absolute unfounded baseless rubbish, nothing but a silly old wives tale.

Gnasher you have some very contradictory ways of thinking

Its very simple Gnasher, if you don`t like the rules then don`t buy or adopt from that rescue or that breeder, there will always sadly be plenty of places who will sell off a dog with no thought to that dogs future, its not like you would be stuck for choice

Just consider why good rescues and ethical breeders have rules - they are not put there to `spite` potential owners you know, even though you seem to take rescue and ethical breeders rules very personally :smt017

A dog or wolf charging is not the same as physically alpha rolling which is what CM does. A subordinate does not need to be pinned by an alpha, they offer the gesture themselves by laying down and exposing their most vulnerable areas of throat and stomach. Often when a subordinate has offered the behaviour the alpha will put their mouth to the subordinate yes, but without biting, its a ritual, not a battle, the alpha has already asserted themselves by the subordinate being willingly submissive, not by being flattened. The mouth hold is just that, its not nipping or prodding, its a hold without available damaging pressure used, unlike a knee or elbow being used to stop a dog from getting up or moving through force until they give up through exhaustion or learned helplessness.

Fights among wolves are very rare, and are usually between younger wolves which are trying to get higher in a pack not by the ones already there, though alpha status is fluid and does change without fighting as the cause.

That`s the point, its not done as threat, its taken by a submissive as an acknowledgement of the alphas status, its posture ritual, not fight.

He wouldnt want to land a hand on either of my dogs as his **** would hit the door on the way out.

No im sorry, BCs are BC like not wolf like in any sense of the imagination.

What???? do you base your opinions on Oprah Winfrey? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!

Patch:

You said: "A dog or wolf charging is not the same as physically alpha rolling which is what CM does".

It's called "clipping" not charging, and you said the word "pin" not "roll", so I assumed we were talking about pinning a dog down using the fingers round the neck and squeezing gently behind the ears, as CM does. He does NOT squeeze hard so that the poor animal chokes, he applies gentle pressure. It is a mimic of the natural alpha wolf dominance and controlling action.

You said: "A subordinate does not need to be pinned by an alpha, they offer the gesture themselves by laying down and exposing their most vulnerable areas of throat and stomach".

I am sorry, but you are incorrect here, with the greatest respect. Within a wolf pack, as indeed with our own dogs, there are different rankings within that pack. And then within each of those rankings, Shaun Ellis believes there are different tasks. You have one type of Omega, who is also a Diffuser, or a Nanny, or a Sentinel. Then with Betas, you have high ranking and low ranking Betas, or you can also have Betas who are also Nannies, Sentinels or Diffusers. It is the high ranking Beta in particular that may need to be pinned down by the neck by the alpha to remind him that, as yet, he is still only a Beta, and to mind his manners. Shaun says if you have a high ranking Beta dog, he will be aggressive with other entire males and you will need to take action to prevent this. (This may be one of those few cases where I might consider castration, although Shaun Ellis says it may not have the desired effect). CM, IMO rightly, advocates pinning the dog down in a similar fashion to the alpha wolf, but instead of using his jaw, he of course uses his hand.

You are right when you say that dogs will offer their necks as a submissive gesture, but a high ranking Beta is unlikely to do this without dissent, and probably wouldn't do it all without being pinned down. You are also right that wolves very rarely fight as we would know it, and if they do ... because a high ranking Beta is staging a take over for instance ... then this will usually if not always result in the death of the alpha or high ranking beta, or serious injury, in which case the animal is dead in the water because he will be left to die.

You said:

"The mouth hold is just that, its not nipping or prodding, its a hold without available damaging pressure used, unlike a knee or elbow being used to stop a dog from getting up or moving through force until they give up through exhaustion or learned helplessness".

We can't use our mouths as our jaws don't stretch wide enough, and I for one would not like to perform such a gesture, so by using our fingers to mimic the teeth, we are using the natural reaction of an alpha male or female in a wolf pack to control insurgents and maintain peace. It works in the wolf pack, and it works on our dogs.

"Fights among wolves are very rare, and are usually between younger wolves which are trying to get higher in a pack not by the ones already there, though alpha status is fluid and does change without fighting as the cause".

This is partly true, they are rare and are often between the youngsters flexing their muscles, but the alpha status, particuarly of the male, is constantly challenged.

You said:

"That`s the point, its not done as threat, its taken by a submissive as an acknowledgement of the alphas status, its posture ritual, not fight".

Pinning very definitely IS a threat, as described above. The threat is surrender or I will crush your throat.

Sorry to argue with you, but I must say I am finding this discussion very interesting ... over to you !