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Adam P
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01-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
What about 'robotic' behaviour masking stress? I mean that the dog does what it has to, appears to comply and perform where it's really robotically going through the motions, avoiding any 'emotional outburst' because it fears the alternative.
Yeah you see that in OB trained collies sometimes, mostly as by product of overdoing the training (excessive reps) with reward based methods, but hey its kinder lol.

Adam
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01-12-2010, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Yeah you see that in OB trained collies sometimes, mostly as by product of overdoing the training (excessive reps) with reward based methods, but hey its kinder lol.

Adam
Actually I meant by fearing the punishment, i.e. the stim.
MerlinsMum
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01-12-2010, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
The way I see it all training creates stress.

Aversive training doesn't mask that stress with anticipation of food/toys, wereas most reward based methods do
I expect you will ignore me but have you not been taught about Eustress vs Distress?

Even the most basic human psychology or counselling course delineates a difference between +stress and -stress.

Where have you been? And why do you not think that is appropriate to dogs? What did they teach you on your degree course? (Not a lot obviously, or you chose to ignore it).

FFS Adam... it is possible for people without degrees to learn that much.
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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01-12-2010, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
The way I see it all training creates stress.

Aversive training doesn't mask that stress with anticipation of food/toys, wereas most reward based methods do.

I don't see how masking something makes the stress any less.

In fact you could argue that a dog must be really worked up (stressed) to focuse so much on a reward that he changes his basic body language.

If I wanted to I could train my dogs to display happy body language as part of the behaviours they offer. This is easy to do either way.

Many reward trainers will do this, Click and treat for a tail wag ect. I prefer to see what my dogs are thinking not what I want to see.

Adam
Then I think you have missed the point of pavlovian/classical conditioning
The reward makes the dog happy, the dog begins to associate the action of working with the handler with the reward so the actual DOING the behaviour is as nice for the dog as eating the treat
Something I noticed early on in clicker training and I have heard other clicker trainers talk about too that often the animals are so excited by the training and the click that they almost forget about the treat in their desire to win the game again
I have even seen clips of fish doing this (they use a flash of light not a click but the training is the same)

and I remember watching one of the zoo programmes where they had clicker traied a big cat to press her chest against the cage so they could listen to her heart to see if there were any problems there
But the method failed because she enjoyed it so much that they couldnt hear her heart because she was purring so loudly
dosent sound like stress to me!!


I would very much like for you to train for your dogs to look happy, I think you will find training far more rewarding when your dog is just shining with sheer joy at being able to work with you
MerlinsMum
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01-12-2010, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
I would very much like for you to train for your dogs to look happy, I think you will find training far more rewarding when your dog is just shining with sheer joy at being able to work with you
To quote a very popular and well-loved cartoonist & writer of the 1950's - I read his books when I was young, my mum & dad didn't have a dog when they got 'into' his books but made a big impression on me -

"Dogs are obsessed with being happy."

I think that's all you ever need to know about dogs really on a simplistic level; that's what owners need to understand, and work towards, and if I can make my dog happy every day that's a job well done

PS: If and when he is happy, then it usually gets to me too anhd makes ME happy, which is a big part of the relationship we have with this species.... anything else is degrading that special bond.
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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01-12-2010, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum View Post
To quote a very popular and well-loved cartoonist & writer of the 1950's - I read his books when I was young, my mum & dad didn't have a dog when they got 'into' his books but made a big impression on me -

"Dogs are obsessed with being happy."

I think that's all you ever need to know about dogs really on a simplistic level; that's what owners need to understand, and work towards, and if I can make my dog happy every day that's a job well done

PS: If and when he is happy, then it usually gets to me too anhd makes ME happy, which is a big part of the relationship we have with this species.... anything else is degrading that special bond.
That is lovely and just so true wouldnt it be nice if we could be a little more dog like
'walk - great'
'lying down, I love lying down'
'where you going, across the room, I LOVE walking across the room'
and totaly agree, even my x who wasnt a big dog fan used to say the happiest thing in the world is a dog with a ball in its mouth
MerlinsMum
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01-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
That is lovely and just so true
Well the guy who penned that was James Thurber... I read his books before, during, and after we had family dogs, and I loved that quote to bits, and still do
Chris
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02-12-2010, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Then I think you have missed the point of pavlovian/classical conditioning
The reward makes the dog happy, the dog begins to associate the action of working with the handler with the reward so the actual DOING the behaviour is as nice for the dog as eating the treat
Too true! Anticipation is often a greater joy than receiving for any species including ourselves. Anticipation and excitement are not stressful - unless, of course, the anticipation is of something bad happening rather than something good.

Whilst I would agree that anticipation of something that is never received would likely cause a great amount of stress (and eventually shutdown because there would be no point in trying), anticipation of something that can be easily and fairly won brings pleasure in itself - hence why, in predominantly reward-based training we set up for success and break behaviours down so that rewards are easy to achieve
mishflynn
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02-12-2010, 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Yeah you see that in OB trained collies sometimes, mostly as by product of overdoing the training (excessive reps) with reward based methods, but hey its kinder lol.

Adam
OMG is that a dig at me?

Collies love to repeat, trainers get bored before the collies. thats why they are so good at it.

My dogs dont even NEED a reward, the reward is actually been abled to work , but hey they have one anyway!!!! Be it a titbit, a play Or just a fuss.

They are def not robotic, they are Fast , stylish, drivey & work with indiviaul Expression,
mishflynn
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02-12-2010, 06:55 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I don't buy into the whole dog should be behind, most dogs prefer to move ahead slightly so I let them.

Throw the ball forwards because, well I did, gave it no more thought than that lol.

Adam
well that says it all really. Training DOES require a little thought

If you want them forward then THINK
Throw it forward, but they will obvisley then continue to get further forward, if you would prefer them back abit, then reward them back.

How does allowing dogs to go forward hep with the pulling? its teaching them to be in a position that will have made the lead short
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