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Location: Scottish Borders
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,902
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Originally Posted by
Promethean
He already knows this and is among the researchers who have redefined our understanding of wolf dynamics.... you seem to be stuck in the 70s when Mech first published his influential an popular book that gave rise to all these misconceptions.
Originally Posted by
TangoCharlie
From David Mech's site...
"Below you can download a pdf version of Schenkel’s 1947 “Expressions Studies on Wolves.” This is the study that gave rise to the now outmoded notion of alpha wolves. That concept was based on the old idea that wolves fight within a pack to gain dominance and that the winner is the “alpha” wolf. Today we understand that most wolf packs consist of a pair of adults called “parents” or “breeders,” (not “alphas”), and their offspring.
See
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/sci...us_english.pdf for more information.
"
Just because some of us maintain that wolves and some wild dogs do live in packs, it does not automatically mean that we support the alpha male and dominace theories. The word 'pack' purely means a group of animals that live and hunt together....it does not specify whether the pack is a family group or not, nor the order within the pack.
The real question I guess is what is the relevance of this to domestic dogs.
Originally Posted by
Ramble
I do hate all the pack/alpha/dominance debates.
The 'is my dog a wolf' thing that goes on.
My dog is not a wolf, just like I am not a caveman. The demands on me and my body since the caveman era have altered as they have with dogs/wolves.
My dog is a dog. If he were allowed to be wild his survival instincts would kick in yes...as would mine...but that would not turn him into a wolf...just a loose dog. If I ended up on a desert island...it would not turn me into a caveman, just a displaced person trying to survive. For both the idea of 'survival of the fittest' would have a stronger place in life...but it would not turn us into our ancestors, we could never be that as we have different life experiences, as did our parents and parents parents. I am not a caveman just as my mud wallowing dog is not a wolf and never, ever will be. Should his pups and pups pups end up wild too...they would still be just that...wild DOGS not wolves.I would be a wild child...so no change there then.
My dog does not see me as a member of his pack either. I am pretty convinced of that. He knows I am not a dog. He is not stupid. He is aware I am not a dog just as he is aware the hamster is not a dog...or the ducks...or pigeons...or squirrels or indeed foxes. Pack behaviour then for me and my dog means nothing. I do not have to be alpha and feed me first etc.
Just my take on it all....
I'm not sure that anyone is trying to say that they would become wolves. But I think there is every likelihood that they would revert to wolf like group structures. Taking your example of humans, no (hopefully at least!) we would not revert to cavemen, but I think there would be certain 'backward' steps. For example, would woman still seek sexual equality - I think not, i think they would revert to looking after the children while the men did the 'hard work'. Choices of partner would also no doubt change - they would not be selected on 'love' or 'compatibilty' but from the woman's point of view, the partner most likely to be able to provide for their family and from the mans, the woman most likely to raise him strong healthy children.
I think dogs are the same in that for them to survive and successfully reproduce, they would need to form close knit groups capable of co-operation, i.e. going back towards the wolf. I also think that whilst domesticated dogs don't currently need the social and other skills to succeed in such a group, for many dogs it is still inherent and that put in the position of needing to live in a pack, they would fall in with the ways quite easily...ie it would not be a completely alien concept to them.
But again, whether this is relevent to the training of a modern domestic dog is a different matter. personally, for the reasons stated above, i don't think it should be automatically dismissed, but equally I certainly don't think it should be used as the foundation for all dog understanding/training etc.