Honest reply MS, and I don't think you are alone. The formula you quote seems to be in common use, but I struggle with it as a breeding practise as its not based on full information, unless one has a tiny breed of recent creation where all ancestors are known.

The KC is probably going to be under some pressure to have COI or similar as a gold standard...it will be interesting to see where they fix it...anecdotally, 3% is bandied about as what people are aiming for...certainly in Europe.

Mary

Not sure where soem of the breeds will stand tbh. WElshies were practically extinct after the war when two of the biggest kennels died out and stopped breeding. We have a very small gene pool to start with and with avoiding hereditary epilipsy we have no choice but to line breed to a certain extent or we lose the breed completly.
Going abroad is definatly not an option as epilepsy is a bigger problem abroad.
Nor would we consider introducing another breed. Not sure what the answer is but whilst my pups are healthy and eye clear/hip clear I guess I just continue.

I'm not immune in my breed either, some v familiar bottlenecks...foundation dogs chosen from a diminishing (post WW2) pool thanks to war and distemper. Ist generation line breeding (father x daughter) to re-establish breed... Multiple use of repeats in one side of pedigree in generations 7 & 8 (which BTW PaddyW doesn't even creep into a COI formula LOL)...My foundation bitch has a ridiculously low COI but I know that is not the whole answer.

I cannot predict what will happen, just test for what has. I can prevent problems down the road (or at least put them off for a few generations) by not line-breeding or, very very infrequently.

Mary

Hi paddywack, It would seem from many of your posts you are kinda against pedigree breeders, the question I have,
Is................
why did you rescue 7 pedigree dogs? from what I can see at least one pedigree cat

1 Maltese
1 GSD
1 Rottweiler
1 Great Dane
1 Border Collie
1 Yorkie
1 Mastiff

when you could have taken on x breeds, I think you clearly enjoy the company of pedigree animals. Nothing wrong with that, but I often find your stance on pedigree's confusing given the dogs you own

Hi Shona
JMO, but I feel one can be against certain practices but for pedigree dogs...I know I am. Certain purists may disagree, of course...it depends how far you push the boundaries LOL

Mary

I also wonder if paddywack has had health issues amoung her pedigree dogs, directly linked to there breeding?

But when one is so vehemently against all pedigree dogs, as Paddywack has give such impressions, in some of her posts.. one wonders how someone who feels so strongly can go against their own strong convictions in supporting the breeders of pedigree dogs, by owning and rescuing them.


Just like the RSPCA vet, it seems it is OK for them to own pedigrees , but every one else is adding to the endless amounts of unscrupulous breeding, by association of owning them.

Some Health Stats;
Epidemiology of canine visceral leishmaniosis in the endemic area of Montes Claros Municipality, Minas Gerais State, Brazil;- Blood samples were collected on filter paper from 33,937 dogs, representing 96.1% of the canine local population; The most affected breeds were:Boxer (24.6%) and Cocker (26.9%); Mongrel dogs had a prevalence of 7.8%.
Extract ; Myth#1. Purebreds are "weaker" than mutts. Mongrels display more genetic faults and inherited disease traits than any one breed. There are endless sets of statistics to prove this idea is a myth, but they never seem to convince anyone. This is probably due to the combination of the following:
a) Sick and crippled mongrels are less likely to be counted as they are less likely to be among the living, let alone among those dogs taken to vet clinic for expensive care.
b) No owner (breeder/vet) ever attributed a disease to a mongrel's breeding.
http://home.comcast.net/~NoPuppyMill..._genetics.html

Prevalence of Campylobacter and four endoparasites in dog populations associated with Hearing Dogs
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...61570/abstract

dogs with insurance claim for Atopic Dermititis;
The most common breeds were German shepherd (n = 16), Labrador retriever (n = 10), West highland white terrier (n = 10), golden retriever (n = 9), mongrel (n = 5), dachshunds (n = 4) and English springer spaniel (n = 4).

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...41705/abstract The most common were crossbreed (567), German Shepherd (92) soz you need log in to access full report

''It is not true that mixed breed dogs are free of genetic diseases due to “hybrid vigor." Dr. George Padgett, a leading canine geneticist, wrote in Dog World in January 1997 that mixed breed dogs can have the same genetic diseases as the original parent breeds.. Padgett said that his files include information on 102 genetic defects identified in mongrel dogs, more than double the number identified in the Cocker Spaniel, one of the country’s most popular breeds. '' http://www.geocities.com/ccrhearts/Poo.html

http://www.helium.com/items/614485-a...-purebred-dogs

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:c...nk&cd=33&gl=uk

Any genetic disease is caused by random mutations in the DNA which persist and are passed on to succeeding generations, any dog can get any inherited condition, I am sure if you all look you will find for one arguement there is always a counter arguement.

No worries, I know what you mean. I am open to the idea of out crossing breeds if it means keeping them healthy tbh (but would rather out cross ESS to ECS as they're much closer in looks (and once the same breed)).

BUT.....

I'd need to be 100% sure it was for the right reasons and adequately researched. I also get the feeling Paddywack is a tad biased for cross breeding, so would need to do my own research into pedigree dogs and whether out crossing really is warranted at this stage before I made a decision (if I was given the option by the KC).

Something does need to change, I know that for sure, but we need to be careful before we start crossing breeds to make sure we don't make the situation worse imo.

Slightly concerned to learn that ESS suffer from HC though Jacquie? I wasn't aware of this.

I could be wrong I think my friend had it done but she does tend to err on the side of caution. She tests her welsh for things we dont have as well.
I know what you mean rumour has it year ago Beagles were introduced for some reason,and some say Welsh have britannies there but apparently its wrong.
Paddywack dioes seem to be awfully bised against pedigrees and pro designer dogs for someone who owns pedigrees.