when my dog grooming business was at its height, i had near on 800 clients. i would agree wholeheartedly with krusewalkers comments here. love can be so blind at times. i have seen acts of cruelty committed by so-called dog lovers. all because they don't understand their dog and have failed to see that certain breeds and certain people should never, ever be together. that certain people should educate themselves before they go anywhere near a dog.

i once groomed a poodle where the owner showed me the leather gloves she wore to groom him. they were pitted with bite marks. i began to groom the dog and quickly realised this was an issue between them. he was fine with me. i asked her to brush him and she took the slicker brush like it was made of silk. she was hurting her dog when she brushed him, but interpreted his reaction to be that of a 'wilful, stubborn creature'. so very, very sad and so very, very avoidable.

Natch.........

I would agree with this. Most people I know seem to like him and find his methods to be very effective. It's only in dog training circles that I've found people are down on him....and only certain dog training circles.

The first trainer we went to with our oldest dog was a big fan of CM and used his methods. That would have been about 18 months ago. I don't remember all the details but she was fully qualified and held some position of authority for the Glasgow area. But she was only a qualified TRAINER.

We switched clubs due to timetable clashes but I still see people that kept going to her club. Their dogs are fine!

We consulted a 1st class honours degree educated, qualified BEHAVIORIST who 'claimed' that everything she did was scientifically proven (the type of claim that some are making in this discussion). Her specialty was with rehabilitation of aggressive dogs. She only accepts vet referrals and she is respected by that profession. She claimed that dog trainers aren't qualified to give proper training advise - only very basic info - the kind of stuff that you could use on any dog without doing harm. (I don't know if her implication was that qualified dog trainers have been taught to dish out 'noddy' advise that won't do any harm but probably won't do much good either. There was also the implication that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing). I considered some of her techniques to be extremely harsh. Her response was that it's better that than to have your dog attack another dog or a person.

So without a doubt many qualified, respected dog experts do use harsh methods. Punishment.

As a child (well, 15 year old) I had a Welsh Springer Spaniel. At the time Barbara Woodhouse was all the rage and my mum (being thorough) trained our dog according to her advice. We even used a choke chain. He was a very happy, very loved family pet. He wasn't 'damaged' by the training. He wasn't in fear of his choke chain - in fact he used to bring it to us with his tail wagging when he wanted a walk. When I look back I have to say that NOTHING about the way we trained that dog was cruel. So whilst I might choose different methods for training my dogs today I couldn't by any stretch of my imagination condemn people as cruel if they still choose to use those methods today. And as a matter of fact, very many people that I know today DO use similar methods to those that we used with my childhood pet. And their dogs are absolutely fine.

However, one way in which we were INCREDIBLY cruel to that poor spaniel was that he was overfed and under-exercised for his breed. And that did in fact kill him before his time. He was killed with kindness. When you consider that in this 'enlightened' day and age where we supposedly have such improved, humane training methods as many as 70% of our pets are estimated to be overweight. That's a huge backwards step when it comes to dog welfare. I think a lot of the people that claim to have the wellfare of dogs at heart would do well to tackle the problems of obesity and insufficient exercise rather than quibbling over whether it's better to 'tap' or 'nudge' a dog to get it's attention or whether to bribe it with treats! (And to be fair, CM DOES tackle these issues more than any other trainer that I've come across).

We use kind methods with our dogs. That's my preference. But I wouldn't critisise others for choosing differently. Nor would I get all high and mighty and preach to them about the error of their ways. We've always worked extremely hard on training and have consulted numerous experts that are fully versed in kind training methods. Yet I know plenty of people that use more old fashioned methods that have far better behaved dogs than me!!!

ummmm, qualified honours degree behaviorists without corresponding years of practical experience....an entirely different topic....dont get me started on that one!

Gnasher wrote

<<<Agreed, but it is not a device that inflicts pain ... unlike a prong, choke or Illusion collar. >>>

Thereby admitting that CM caused dogs pain.

rune

Actually she's got plenty of years of practical experience. I don't know what led you to assume otherwise.

I found it interesting that she viewed (and spoke of) trainers in the way you hear many trainers speaking of dog owners. So whereas the trainer might say things like "your average pet owner hasn't a clue how to read their dog", she might say "the average dog trainer hasn't a clue how to read a dog".

There's money to be made in dog training so it's no surprise that you get so much animosity and backstabbing between those that make a living out of training dogs. And of course, amongst the dog owners - well, of course we all want to believe that we've done right by our dogs. It's nice to think that we've given our dogs the best possible diet, care, medical treatment and training. It's comforting to think that those that do it differently are wrong.

CM IS popular. Which makes it very hard for a dog trainer that uses rewards based training to 'sell their wares' when people are pre-conditioned by CM and other TV trainers. This is of course another possible explanation as to why you hear so much criticism of CM in places where professional dog trainers congregate.

Good point Scarter, I hadn't thought of this. The same thing happens everywhere. I've seen it myself in our business, a new manager taking over a pub & hating everything the old managers did, even though it worked brilliantly.

Of course all these 'trainers' & 'behaviourists' dislike the fact that someone else is offering easy & clear do-it-yourself instructions to help train their dogs.

How very strange. I have never ever had to explain to anyone who Cesar Millan is.

Where we live is very "doggy". Not just our village, virtually every man AND his dog has a dog !!

Not only does everyone seem to have heard of CM, they avidly watch the Dog Whisperer ... AND happily tell me that they follow his methods.

Actually, I tell a lie ... there was one couple we met with a very unbalanced and unhappy little chappie - a JRT. I explained to them about CM, where they could see him etc. but they didn't have a digital tv, so couldn't get the freeview channel that the DW is featured on.

Good post - agree with what you say. It was just the arrogant, condescending and patronising tone of your post Kruse!

You don't have to be a trainer, a teacher, a college professor, whatever, to be an expert in a subject. Whereas I would never ever describe myself as an expert in canine matters, I have owned dogs for over 40 years, and do not like to be told that I cannot "read" them. You have no way of knowing whether or not I can or cannot. You are just basing your "accusations" on the fact that if you are a supporter of CM's methods, you CANNOT POSSIBLY know ANYTHING about what makes dogs tick.

I totally and utterly disagree with such an arrogant statement.

I suspect CM might just about have been able to come to the same conclusion !!

Not sure how you can possibly insinuate that this woman was using methods similar to CM. Tai loves to be groomed, but I have to be very gentle because I use one of those Furminator type rakes to remove the dead undercoat and bits of barley from his fur. If you are too rough, it hurts as he is quite bony under all that heavy coat. To interpret his protest as being "wilful and stubborn" would be just ridiculous, and I object to your insinuation that somehow this is a Cesar-like interpretation ... unless I have misinterpreted your words, in which case I apologise!