This is true, Maddy and Charlie are very vocal in play which to a stranger might seem intimidating I suppose but I know my dogs and I know the difference between play noise and 'talking' grumbles to a real growl.

In that case Biffters grumbles, rather than growls and he's allowed to as he's almost 12, full of lumps and incredibly arthritic in his rear end... I wouldn't accept it if it was for no reason, or when we'd asked him to do something, he does it when handled in a certain way, unfortunatley to monitor the size of one of his lipomas we have to do it from time to time...
[QUOTE=Minihaha;1407820]Lottie you have had some excellent advice here. I have watched your progress in your posts from when you first joined here with your puppy , if I may say so you have turned into an intuitive and good trainer and I think you should go with your instincts.
I don't believe dogs growl for no reason, there is always a reason (even if it is because they are comfortable on furniture, I don't allow mine up in the first place except by invitation and for those who do jump up would call down to a bed and praise/treat) .
QUOTE]

What a lovely post MIni.

See I'm not so sure... I've always allowed a low growl (not teeth showing) as communication but my parents haven't so I really can't say whether it's me allowing it or my parents now allowing it.

I've had to work damned hard with her because my dad made her hand and collar shy and I've had to work hard to get rid of this.

I do certainly take some of the blame because I have been depressed and stressed in the past (went to the doctor and asked for anti depressants so I didn't shout at my dogs so much!) and have had to really learn to be patient.

I've also done what other people have told me because they've had dogs longer than me even though I had read differently and should've followed my instincts.

I know things have slipped with Takara recently (having the foster dog here is especially difficult) but I have also got a plan as to how to get things back. But she's always been highly stressy - most likely due to not only her breeding but also her environment.

Hey Lottie,

reading your post, I don't think you are too soft with your dogs. It sounds like you are coping with some health issues with your dog (sorry I don't know the full story) and if any dog is poorly they are going to get irritable.

I don't agree in smacking a dog in any form for any reason. I'm lucky to have never been in a situation where my dog has growled or snapped at me in an aggressive way, but if he did I wouldn't smack him. I wouldn't necessarily back away, but I wouldn't push him either. I would probably say 'No!' very firmly and give him 'the look'

My step-dad had an old springer that was really grumpy. He bit just about everyone in the village, but never had any problems with me. Once though, I was eating Chinese food while sitting on the sofa and he stood in front of me and growled. So I stood up and walked towards him so he had to back away (he was deaf so I couldn't give verbal commands). He didn't do it anymore after that.

I don't think you have to be extreme in telling dogs 'no'. You just have to be firm and consistant. It sounds to me that she's only doing it because she's fed up with herself rather than any real aggression towards you Lottie.

HTH x

Thanks Sarah, yes this is certainly the case. When she's got up on the furniture and growled/snapped (she snaps rarely, it's usually a growl) she's better if I put my whole body towards her instead of just my hands and as such, I've put my face right near hers and she never, ever shows aggression in that way.

She's had a lot to put up with recently and we're both tired and stressed - I think I need to get back to the rules with her so she definitely knows where she stands (dallies will constantly test the boundaries of what they're allowed to do) but also need to let up on myself and realise that although we don't always 'get on' we do have an incredible bond.
Without her, I doubt I'd be here now and if I was, I certainly wouldn't be this well - she really saved my life.

Noooo, there are a couple of things which will lead to a snap in this context :
1] Ignoring the reason for the growl can lead to a defensive show of teeth, [ usually with head back or turned away rather than forward ready to strike ], if that is ignored as well it can lead to an air snap, then if still ignored can lead to a contact snap.

2] If told off for growling to communicate, then told off for the next two steps in the communication, can lead to stealth snapping, [ which is exactly what had been done to my Gremlin ].



When a dog is in pain, [ including knotted fur being pulled, that can really hurt ! ], it`s not about `being the boss`, it`s about recognising when something has caused physical or mental discomfort to a degree that a dog feels the need to react, and addressing that reason preferably by removing or desensitising to that reason.
Telling a dog `no` in a `telling off` way, [ or punishing more forcefully ], for a dog letting on that something is up can all too easily cause a dog to not use the most important communications they have and that`s when escalation to bites is far more likely to happen.
I`ve known of many cases of dogs apparently `suddenly turning` when the reality is that they were punished in some way for grumbling, [ be it verbally or otherwise ], so things which caused them problems, [ often pain or concern at whatever ], were covered over until breaking point occurred because owners simply didn`t recognise when something was wrong due to taking away that most basic of communications
There are various calming signals which also usually occur before the growl phase,[ except where very sudden pain or fright are the case ].
For example : Dog is on the sofa but has never been taught an `off`. Owner gets dogs off physically, perhaps with a touch of frustration. The next time, the dog turns head away a little, might yawn or lick lips - gets ignored, so dog leans away a little, body language gets ignored, hand reaches toward dog, [ which dog now associates with being removed from sofa in what to the dog is an overbearing way ], dog grumbles, get told off, then is removed more roughly.
Next time, all stages are ignored, so dog airsnaps as well.Treatment gets even rougher. Eventually dog does`nt bother showing they are concerned / wary, so defensively goes for the hand which has already been associated with every communication they have previously offered being ignored, hence no warnings this time, stealth bite occurs, and often dog gets destroyed.
And all because the owner wanted to show they were boss by stomping all over every signal, appeasement, and communication the dog tried in vain

I would recommend the book and / or DVD : On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas, which offers invaluable insight on how to understand - and react - to the most subtle of canine communications which can help owners re-empt and diffuse things before the need to growl even occurs or how to understand the growls when the trigger is sudden and the dog has`nt had time to give the usual signals which tend to be shown in a non-sudden or learned behaviour situation

I wouldnt take it,, no way, but I think as others have said, poss you fuss them to much, let get to bed themselfs, when there let them be, If it were my lot I just plain wouldnt let them on the sofa, my lot do give the odd grumble and moan, but never a snap,,,

No I wouldn't take that for a second. A dog would only do that to me ONCE never again. The methods used to achieve this are many and varied and up to the owner to decide what they feel is appropriate.

Presumably regardless of if they were ill / in pain ?

For context, when friends / family who usually get on great are verbally snappy with each other, or huff and puff, or give it ` oh for goodness sake leave me alone`, those are equivalents of a dog having a grumble, an air snap is the equivalent of a human throwing their hands up in despair. Hardly offences for a zero tolerance policy

All the people saying an outright ` I would`nt tolerate it` and inferring what can only be taken as `one way trip to the vet` reactions or whatever they feel suitable to effectively gag their dog when they should be the ultimate a dog can have trust and faith in, I`m afraid that shows considerable lack of understanding of canine psyche, no wonder so many dogs get dumped in rescues with claims of being `aggressive` or destroyed for no more reason than an owner who does`nt think they have a responsibility to actually understand their dog

Interesting answers so far. I'm afraid I'm with Patch on this, 100%.

I currently have 2 dogs (and owned many others). One is the most benevolent, tolerant type who would rather do anything than display a negative aggressive response. The other owns the shortest fuse in the canine world and regularly swears, bares teeth, growls and snaps. The root cause of her behaviour is beyond the scope of this post but I was initially (and to my shame) much too tough with her. (In part, a legacy of the you have to show her who is boss brigade).

Simply put, my 'management' embedded the behaviour and made her worse. Learning to read the language is not only safer, but correct interpretation can lead to a partnership of mutual respect. Do I trust her? not completely. Can I correctly interpret her behaviour? Yes, and as such she will always require someone who can read dog. Any other alternatives were too horrible to contemplate.

I am, TBH, surprised by some of the responses along the lines of 'I wouldn't allow it' or 'it would be the last time'. I honestly thought things had moved on, as I associated these views with less enlightened times (and I have been there). Perhaps, reading this thread and those generalised responses from experienced owners, it would be fairer to say that until a dog you love presents you with a complex management behaviour problem, the answer is simplistic!

Mary