In the light of GSDLover's comment, could you explain where this has come from Wysiwyg -

"The inference being that if any dog eats before the owner then there is a danger of the dog wanting to "take over"."

For clarity, I'll quote from the book directly: (non salient points removed)

I hope that helps clarify.

Personally, I do have one issue with this theory but I think it's sort of answered throughout the book. My issue is that if I follow this logic to the letter, then the day I stop doing it, after the two week period (or however long), then I relinquish the higher position again. However, the book sort of states that the other (hierachy gathering) elements of the training will also be kicking in and that this is not the sole method, but rather a very clear and striking method to get the ball rolling, as it were.

Something else to note, which I think is often misinterpreted with JF is the line "will establish you at an upper level of the household's hierachy". Note she doesn't state that you will be leader of the wolf pack, in fact, she doesn't state that you will be leader of anything. She states, very clearly in my view, that it will establish you as ahead of the dog in your family unit (of which your dog is now also a member of). Something that I really don't believe anyone can argue the importance of.

Gosh, the discussion has moved on apace since I last peeked in.

I don't like the eating first theory, I don't have time for it, I have dogs to feed (they eat at different times) and family to feed. My dogs generally eat before me and they respect me. My pups initially have 4 meals a day, they have to sit and wait and eat on command, and I have no need to stick my face in their bowl. I don't have time to do it and wouldn't want to...my dogs ain't thick, they would know if I'd eaten their food, I'd smell of it!
Sorry, I don't like it, my opinion and I've never found it necessary. Nor do I like the idea of a dog being totally focused on me as I eat my meal, I call that begging...I expect my dogs to go away and find something more interesting to do when I eat as they know they ain't getting anything!!!!
as an aside, my pups always eat bfore my older dogs, never had any problems there either!!!
We're all different so are dogs and I don't think we'll ever really understand them totally and isn't that the joy of knowing them????

I think you may have completely misunderstood the concept there. <Wonders how many people have had visions of me sticking my face in a dog bowl> lol

Let me further assure, you, the very last thing my dog does when I am eating my meals is watch me eating them. Her usual practise is to go and lie down, actually quite uninterested in my eating, as it should be. What on earth made you think otherwise?

I think your last point explains it. I have never felt the need to deliberately eat before my dogs yet they know that if I wanted to, I would take food from them or stick my face in their bowls and they would accept my authority to do this. I see 'eating first' as just one, easy-to-use method of reinforcing status which only becomes neccessary when other, perhaps more subtle behaviours, have not already established hierarchy.

*sighs*
I was adding some frivolity into the discussion. Apologies. I don't think anyone has the image of you with your head in a dog bowl.

Whilst here you were discussing eating your dogs food...you are still eating, she is watching therefore, I see it as begging. My opinion GSD Lover. I think there are other, more appropriate times to teach a 'look' command. That's fine, my opinion and you have yours. I apologise if i didn't phrase my last post very well. I hope you understand my points now.

I don't know whether it's me but i don't always "get" what you mean!? Sorry not trying to be obtuse, The comment made was referring to pack theory generally as it has always been taught by dog trainers to owners over the years who believe in and follow it. The belief has been to control a dog who seems to be always waiting in the winds to "take over" the "family pack". Eating before the dog was one of the "rules" followed to apparently prevent a dog taking over alpha position So where it has "come from" is historically dog trainers who have believed in pack theory.

Agree with everything you say Shadowboxer, you are good at putting things in nutshells

I think we are maybe talking (or posting!) at cross purposes here...you seem to be referring to pack theory as "what wolves do" whereas i'm referring to it as the training method based on "what scientists and behaviourists have previously told us they do" ie it's not the same as what they actually do do (as we know now).

It is very relevant though. Agreed, captive packs (this is individual animals which were brought together and set free in a designated area) don't show normal behaviour - my point is that until very recently, "pack theory" as related to dog ownership was based on exactly this

Ie it was based on behaviour that was not normal, but was thought to be normal.