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Cayley
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28-03-2008, 11:36 AM
There is no denying things have changed, when the system was elementary, starters, novice, intermediate, senior and advanced it was possible to get a high place in novice because the courses were usually difficult with the occassional easy one, so experienced handlers bringing out new dogs had to train them to a higher standard before competing so apart from the few that are successfull straight away, it took them a few shows before they got fast clear rounds. Now they are bringing new dogs into grade 3 and from the few courses that I did they were easy with the occasional difficult one, so the experienced handlers just blast their dogs round them and rather than one or two being clear most of them are, so those of us who were getting 5th or above on these courses in starters are now usually outside the top 10 .
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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28-03-2008, 03:10 PM
So really are we saying that the courses are too easy?? (I am just staring out so I know nothing about the old system - or this one for that matter) Would it be better for all if grades 1, 2 and 3 had some fast and some technical courses? Because I can kinda see the point (if I am reading it all correctly) that at the moment the more technical courses that some other dogs would be more suited to only appear at higher grades that the fast in a straight line dogs would have more trouble with
Would that level the playing field a bit and make it a little fairer??
I suppose it is difficult to make it a fair for all sport, jump heights, contact lengths, weave spacing and jump spacing and tightness of turns all have to be set and they all favour some dogs more than others

I guess as agility is more and more popular then there is more scope for things. I know there are some breed specific shows. I for one would love to go and watch a dobie agility show, the one in our class makes me smile to watch all the time (and once he is accurate he will beat me n Ben every time cos a slow trot for him is faster than us flat out)
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Cayley
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28-03-2008, 04:32 PM
Bearing in mind I haven't competed since last June so it may have changed, there was a clear difference in course types between starters and novice, so once I was out of starters I didn't really expect to get any fast courses as there would be more tricky bits that required handling, I had the choice of going in grade 3 or 4 but I chose 3 as Sammy was losing confidence so I thought they'd give him a chance to have break from the twisty courses but I didn't expect them to be so fast, had I known I would of gone in grade 4.
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Bonwillan
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28-03-2008, 11:00 PM
We run with Beagles So getting round is a 'win' We do have quite a bit of success and have won a few 1st But winning is not the be all and end all of agility running a good smooth clear is better than winning because you and your dog have done what all the training has been for

Our biggest win was at last years KC festival when we won the Novice Cup Jumping Comp beating 55 other dogs many of higher grades than us. I walked to the podium feeling extatic as all I could hear from the crowd was "Its a Beagle" That pleased me more than winning the cup. I think most people were expecting one of the little fast Collies to have won.
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Kicks
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28-03-2008, 11:41 PM
hmmm to reply or not to reply! here goes...

your posts come across as being very opinionated about what is "right and wrong" in agility, heres a few points for you to consider...

I am one of these people to be loathed - an other breed deserter! I never had a collie before I started agility, and if I hadnt started agility I probably never would have had one! *gasp, shock, horror*. Before I started agility I thought collies had dodgy temprements, were manic whirlwinds and you'd have to do more than pay me to get me to have one. My reasons for getting a collie however were not out of a need to win, an underlying urge to "fit" or any other of the absurd reasons you make inferences to in your posts. No I got a collie because I fell in love with the breed! God forbid that people who had until that point only met badly socialised snappy collies should actually grow to love and admire the breed! That by spending time around the dogs it got that they couldnt imagine life without one!

Oh, and just to "prove" (though why should collie converts have to?) my ABC's were competitive and were successful going so far as to win at crufts. As are many of my friends ABC's! Proportionally there are more collies competing in agility, and so they are bound to win more! That was my stand before I had a collie as well. On any day the best dog will win, slower dogs do come out on top sometimes! Hey if my old lab could do it im sure any dog can! I've been beaten by many breeds!

Lets go right upto the highest level, championship - oh look theres an ABC ag. champion! Yes you say but look how many collies there are in comparison - well they deserve to be there! The dogs and their owners have worked hard, put sweat and I dare say tears into it, theres just as much training goes into it. In fact training an incredibly fast obsessed collie is not as easy as people appear to view it! As has been said there are as many more "failed" collies than there are successful ones.

As per the grade system, the whole point of grade three was so that the dogs could start at the appropriate level! So what if experienced handlers are running them? If you look at some of the top handlers you will see for the one or two successful dogs they have they will also have several not so successful dogs! A friend of mine for example has an ag. ch. they also run in grade 3! Mind you the grade 3 dog is now 12 and has only ever had 3 clear rounds - according to your beliefs they dont have any right to be in that grade .

One more thing to address - multi dog households, do they really need that many dogs?

Maybe the top handlers have more dogs, (though from what ive seen its more likely to be the people struggling to do well who keep getting new dogs in the hopes one of them will "come good") - if people spend that amount of time training, playing, bonding and caring with and for their dogs why shouldnt they have as many as they please? I honestly dont see what business it is of yours. Or is it just because you're being beaten? Because as others have said your posts are giving off a "sour grape beacon".

I have also never heard of dogs being trained up and sold on. Oh ok it might have happened once or twice somewhere in the back of beyond, but I can also imagine the hassle that they would get, the people who would turn their backs as they walked past, and the amount of gossip there would be about it - twelve years + in agility and I have no scandels (of that sort ) to report!

Set your own realistic goals for you and your dogs and train towards them. If that is to get your dog into the placings great - go for it! If its to penalise others for beating you - get over it!

On any given day, on any course, every entry has the potential to win. And one of them will. Next time you feel aggreived that a collie has beaten you to it, look at the dog - look at the happiness its its eyes and the shine on its coat, in short

SEE THE DEED NOT THE BREED

xx
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by fluffybunnyfeet View Post
It just seems that there is a handful of people hellbent on winning and taking over the sport, and seeing the age of the dogs (Collies)competing they must have been trained very early and intensively. Is this what its come down too?
this sort of comment gets up my nose just a little bit. Yes some handlers and their dogs will do very well with a youngster but that does not mean that it has been trained early or intensively. Some experienced handlers are simply that, experienced good at what they do and able to get the best out of their dogs early on in competition because that experience means that they don't make a lot of the silly mistakes the rest of us do! If an experienced handler brings out a young dog and does well early on the assumption is that they have trained it hard and this is not always the case!

Originally Posted by fluffybunnyfeet View Post
To clarify Mish, the rules have changed, the goalposts have been moved and it favors the senoir trainers and Collie dog brigade. Its not about winning or rosettes but you don't expect to drive 100 miles to an event like a small league tennis torny and find that your tennis opponent is Andrew Murray, or at a local race car meet and Lewis Hamilton pulls up on the grid, or a low league snooker contest and Ronnie O' Sullivan turns up. Get my point?
It favours the senior trainers? Mmm do you mean older or those at a higher level than you? The handlers I think you are referring to at that show are as much entitled to be there as anyone else. Only one had a dog in grade three and with only 2 clear rounds over the weekend resulting in 2 places both in jumping classes I cannot see what a difference it would make to you? I travelled nearly 4 hours to kernow K9 and really enjoyed my weekend, it is not a show I have ever done before but certainly would go again. I have been re-training my (grade 6 ) dogs contacts so held them all weekend and managed to cock up his jumping classes, I also have a grade 3 dog whose contacts I held all weekend yet he still managed 2nd and 3rd. Finally I have a dog that runs in anysize and he only got one clear and a 7th place but had a whale of a time. I have collies because I like them not because of agility, my eldest dog was 2 1/2 before he even saw a jump yet he is the grade 6 that will go into grade 7, my grade 3 will also make it to grade 7 although I have just put him out of grade 3 on points as the flat out courses are not helping him.

I don't like the new system, I think it encourages people to bring a dog out ready to win out of grade 3 because that is the hardest level to get out of even for experienced handlers. The points progression was supposed to help this but still people are complaining that they want to win out of that level. I can understand winning out of grade 1 or 2 but after that the only other win that is needed is into grade 6 so why can't people take the points option? Agility is not just about speed, I have seen good handlers do well with a average dog, if speed was all that mattered that wouldn't happen.

Originally Posted by fluffybunnyfeet View Post
It goes without saying that if you want to win get a Collie
What a load of rubbish! having a collie does not mean that you will win, there are plenty of slow ones out there beaten regularly by very good ABC's!

Originally Posted by fluffybunnyfeet View Post
Its not about winning, but its nice to be on a level playing field and competing at a comfortable level which your chosen breed of dog can occassionally come good, but at the moment its like your local village football team playing Manchester United (spit).

The OH puts a lot of time in for our dog, and also is a trainer at the local club which is a weekly commitment. There were some members at the recent competition, all have very good dogs (mostly Collies) but I don't think even one of them were placed at all. The same names seemed to crop up several times in the results with the exception of the lower grades which they were not competing in.
You are never going to have a level playing field. Under the old system your dog would be competing in novice now against the same handlers and their dogs so that itself hasn't changed

as for the dogs your OH trains..... so what if they didn't get placed? The higher up you go the harder it gets to come home with a rosette. It is always going to be harder because the standard is that much higher. It is also harder for an inexperienced handler to get a place in a class that is combined with higher grades, I think the small and medium classes were either 1 -4 comb or 5-7 comb?

It appears to me that sour grapes really is the order of the day! You have a dog that you don't expect much from because it's older and not a collie and you don't think experienced handlers should be at a small show and you clearly don't approve of them having more than one dog as this means that they must be selling them? Never even heard of that happening, hell of an assumption to make!! Did it not occur to you that some of these handlers are running other peoples dogs? I saw several doing just that over the weekend!

ETA I also don't know of that many experienced handlers having a string of dogs? I know of dozens that only have 3 or 4.............
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
So really are we saying that the courses are too easy?? (I am just staring out so I know nothing about the old system - or this one for that matter) Would it be better for all if grades 1, 2 and 3 had some fast and some technical courses? Because I can kinda see the point (if I am reading it all correctly) that at the moment the more technical courses that some other dogs would be more suited to only appear at higher grades that the fast in a straight line dogs would have more trouble with
Would that level the playing field a bit and make it a little fairer??
I suppose it is difficult to make it a fair for all sport, jump heights, contact lengths, weave spacing and jump spacing and tightness of turns all have to be set and they all favour some dogs more than others

I guess as agility is more and more popular then there is more scope for things. I know there are some breed specific shows. I for one would love to go and watch a dobie agility show, the one in our class makes me smile to watch all the time (and once he is accurate he will beat me n Ben every time cos a slow trot for him is faster than us flat out)
I don't think the courses are too easy. I think the problem is that they have to be set for the majority and no I don't mean collies! I do judge and I enjoy setting courses for the lower levels, I believe that inexperienced handlers and dogs need straight forward courses to help build confidence. Handlers in grade 1 and 2 make their own mistakes. I have been known to alter pacing between jumps which in fact catches out the faster dogs so some of the steadier ones that would not normally get a place on a fast course do and I know I am not the only judge to do that I set one course last year like that on the final line, I also made them go past the wrong jump across open space to the next and a lot of faster dogs were eliminated here, the steadier ones stayed with their handlers and went clear. The problem with the new grades as I see it is that now judges are more aware of which dogs are in each level, in the old novice their were always young dogs but the courses had to be set for majority which were not inexperienced youngsters. Now we have grades and grade 3 is for young dogs or those that have progressed out of grade 2 so judges are setting nice flowing courses so that these young dogs don't lose confidence on sequences they are not ready for. You still get some trickier combinations but they are few and far between and have lots of people moaning at ringside I am really starting to think that it would be better for the grade 2 handlers to go straight into grade 4 and leave grade 3 for the young dogs coming out with experienced handlers
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Kicks View Post
hmmm to reply or not to reply! here goes...

your posts come across as being very opinionated about what is "right and wrong" in agility, heres a few points for you to consider...

I am one of these people to be loathed - an other breed deserter! I never had a collie before I started agility, and if I hadnt started agility I probably never would have had one! *gasp, shock, horror*. Before I started agility I thought collies had dodgy temprements, were manic whirlwinds and you'd have to do more than pay me to get me to have one. My reasons for getting a collie however were not out of a need to win, an underlying urge to "fit" or any other of the absurd reasons you make inferences to in your posts. No I got a collie because I fell in love with the breed! God forbid that people who had until that point only met badly socialised snappy collies should actually grow to love and admire the breed! That by spending time around the dogs it got that they couldnt imagine life without one!

Oh, and just to "prove" (though why should collie converts have to?) my ABC's were competitive and were successful going so far as to win at crufts. As are many of my friends ABC's! Proportionally there are more collies competing in agility, and so they are bound to win more! That was my stand before I had a collie as well. On any day the best dog will win, slower dogs do come out on top sometimes! Hey if my old lab could do it im sure any dog can! I've been beaten by many breeds!

Lets go right upto the highest level, championship - oh look theres an ABC ag. champion! Yes you say but look how many collies there are in comparison - well they deserve to be there! The dogs and their owners have worked hard, put sweat and I dare say tears into it, theres just as much training goes into it. In fact training an incredibly fast obsessed collie is not as easy as people appear to view it! As has been said there are as many more "failed" collies than there are successful ones.

As per the grade system, the whole point of grade three was so that the dogs could start at the appropriate level! So what if experienced handlers are running them? If you look at some of the top handlers you will see for the one or two successful dogs they have they will also have several not so successful dogs! A friend of mine for example has an ag. ch. they also run in grade 3! Mind you the grade 3 dog is now 12 and has only ever had 3 clear rounds - according to your beliefs they dont have any right to be in that grade .

One more thing to address - multi dog households, do they really need that many dogs?

Maybe the top handlers have more dogs, (though from what ive seen its more likely to be the people struggling to do well who keep getting new dogs in the hopes one of them will "come good") - if people spend that amount of time training, playing, bonding and caring with and for their dogs why shouldnt they have as many as they please? I honestly dont see what business it is of yours. Or is it just because you're being beaten? Because as others have said your posts are giving off a "sour grape beacon".

I have also never heard of dogs being trained up and sold on. Oh ok it might have happened once or twice somewhere in the back of beyond, but I can also imagine the hassle that they would get, the people who would turn their backs as they walked past, and the amount of gossip there would be about it - twelve years + in agility and I have no scandels (of that sort ) to report!

Set your own realistic goals for you and your dogs and train towards them. If that is to get your dog into the placings great - go for it! If its to penalise others for beating you - get over it!

On any given day, on any course, every entry has the potential to win. And one of them will. Next time you feel aggreived that a collie has beaten you to it, look at the dog - look at the happiness its its eyes and the shine on its coat, in short

SEE THE DEED NOT THE BREED

xx

HEAR HEAR!!!!!
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Mahooli
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29-03-2008, 08:17 AM
I know very little about the rules of agility but when people make their dogs up to a champion do they still compete and can they still gather tickets like they do in conformation classes or has this new grading system worked out that all the champions end up in the same grade anyway?
Becky
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colliemad
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29-03-2008, 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I know very little about the rules of agility but when people make their dogs up to a champion do they still compete and can they still gather tickets like they do in conformation classes or has this new grading system worked out that all the champions end up in the same grade anyway?
Becky
To compete in champ classes your dog has to be grade 7 which means it has to have won 4 classes at grade 6 (2 of which must be agility not jumping). If they then make it to agility champion they can continue to compete and gather champ tickets. Winning an agility champ class is a huge achievement as you not only have to beat every other dog but some of them are champions several times over, the difference with agility though is that the judges opinion of your dog doesn't mean much if it's not the fastest dog around the course clear..... In champ classes handlers have to compete on a jumping course then an agility course. Then they go on to compete in the champ final (sorry not sure how they qualify or how many) and the winner of that gets the ticket You tend to see all the top handlers at champ shows and watching the champ classes run is well worth your time as the courses are usually quite challenging. It is also interesting to see how many dogs seem to just stroll round but then go on and win the class.......
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