Joedee you need to reread my posts. I have said that they do not work in aggression - we did not use an e collar on Ben for his aggression, we used it to train a perfect recall so that he could be let off the lead in suitable places without fear of him attacking another male dog.

The one thing you would definitely NOT use an e collar for is to stop a dog being aggressive.

I'm a littl lost here to be honest, you are now saying the basis of using the e.collar on Ben was/ is due to his recall and nothing to do with aggression.

That's not the impression all your other posts/ threads has led the forum to believe, as in my first quote, it's always been Bens aggression that has forced you to use an e.collar.

Or are you now saying that behaviourists has recommended euthanasia or e.collar as a last resort for a dog with poor recall

as I said confusing.....

I wouldn't take on a wolf cross, they are far to unpredictable, wolves are very nervous animals and no matter how much you try to socialise and train them many you can't, this can be passed on to their offspring which can make a very unpredictable pet. Personally I think these are a lot more dangerous than those on the DDA and to me that is were they belong. Wolves are not pets and never will be even when crossed with a dog, some will be fine but many will be dangerous.


Just because you have different beliefs than other doesn't mean you should make a savage attack, we all have different views and sometimes when writing them down they can sound like you are attacking because it is often difficult to put things into words. I like to be very clear when posting and do upset people at times but I won't make a personal attack or a savage attack because someone thinks differently to me. It is by discussion and swopping ideas that we learn and one day something we have seen someone do can help us.

I agree, I could have sent 2 of my dogs away to have chains used to stop them chasing and bringing sheep down but I chose to make sure they never got the chance to worry them. For 14 years they never got the chance, it wasn't even difficult to keep them on a lead round sheep.

If a dog is looking at something, like another dog or person, when they are shocked with the collar they can, and many do, blame the other dog or person for the shock. I was out one day when I stopped to talk to someone with their dog, another dog ran out of her house straight at mine and this other dog and didn't stop, she ran into Joe and pushed her onto the other dog who thought Joe was attacking him. No harm done, or we thought. After that this other dog always warned Joe away if he looked like he was going to get close, up to then they had been good friends and had both grown up knowing each other. The dog who Joe was pushed into thought Joe was attacking him.

All BYBs and puppy farmers should wear one all the time so they can be zapped every time they want to breed.

Like Jackie I am now confused, I thought you used the E collar to stop your dog attacking other dogs, now you are saying it is for a good recall

There are some breeds that are difficult to get a good recall but it can be done using positive methods. Dogs with very high prey drive are very difficult to teach a good recall when they are after the prey, it can be done by positive methods, I have done it, it takes a lot of hard work but can be done.

Sorry for the confusion - the whole point of the e collar usage with Ben was because of his poor recall. His poor recall led to him being able to flatten other dogs. We did not want to confine him to a life on the lead, so took advice as to how to train him not to run off.

Indirectly therefore, it was/is Ben's aggression that set us on the e collar road, but primarily it was to solve the recall problem.

My original wc Hal was fourth generation - we did for a few weeks foster an F1 youngster, and although we managed to get him to the point where he was absolutely fine and relaxed with his own pack - both human and canine - he was absolutely terrified of strangers. We fostered him at 9 weeks old - far too late for him to be able to be integrated into human society. By 3 weeks, the fear of humans has been triggered in wolves - anything on 2 legs is to be feared. By 9 weeks, we were on a hiding to nothing. A human on a tractor or on a motorbike was fine, because it was not seen as being 2 legged, but a human walking on 2 legs was an absolute no no. However, my boy Hal did not fall into this category, and neither did Ben. They were dogs effectively, but retained more wolfiness than a non-wolf cross. Whatever your feelings are about wolves as pets, they do and can make good pets but ONLY if they are taken away from their mothers at 3 weeks, and ONLY if they have constant human contact. The little guy we fostered had had neither.

To get back to the subject - e collars - Ben bears absolutely no grudge at all re his collar. He knows that when his collar is put on it is walkie time, and is absolutely totally happy to have it put on. Far from breaking the bond of trust between dog and handler, it has enhanced our bond with Ben. It is like an extension of the lead, he has received so few zaps - they simply have not been necessary. The very first time he received one, he looked at OH as if to say "o god, at last you can talk to me". He "got" it immediately. I would add that e collars are not for every dog. I think for a dog with virtually no intelligence - my mother had a beautiful English Setter called Sammy. There was no-one home. He was a dear sweet boy, but totally lacking in any intelligence whatsoever. To use an e collar on him would have been pointless, because simply he would not have made the connection.

You are right when you say that some breeds are very difficult to get a good recall ... particularly the northern breeds, and dogs with a very high prey drive. My Ben falls into this category - we tried everything, absolutely everything, and nothing worked. The e collar works - the dog is supremely happy, has freedom on every walk, comes when he is called, where's the problem?

Now to me that is the problem I have seen dogs traumatised by abuse who still return time and again to their owner, they tend not to bite the person who abuses them. Which is why they are such loving companions of course but also why we have a duty of care not to use anything that hurts them when we are training them.

I have had dogs in this category as well, all were taught a good recall with positive methods, 2 had tasted blood on sheep, one of the was a good killing machine when rabbits, voles, pheasants and squirrels were around yet I could get her to recall once she was in the chase. If I can do it so can most people. It is just a matter of traintraintraintrain.

When I first got Joe his previous owner had beaten him for coming back, if he was loose he was terrified of coming back to me, it took me 4 years to find the key to him coming back. He was an abused dog that I had to work through his terror, I did. A well known person with E collars told me he would have got a good recall from Joe within 14 days, once I found the key to Joe it took 10 days from being a terrified dog to having a 99% recall, much faster than the E collar. I first taught him that a clicker meant he was safe to come to me, once he worked that out I had his recall. That was the first time I heard of a clicker, I didn't know how to use it properly but it still worked, if I used an E collar wrong it would do a lot of damage to the dog. Positive training doesn't do the damage when you get it wrong that other methods do, to me that is a very good reason to use positive methods.

I'm not a fan of electric shock collars, in fact I hate them and think they should not be available to the public in the way they are at the moment. I believe in 99% of the cases they are abused and cause more harm than good. I firmly believe in positive, reward based methods and even more in methods that use the dogs natural social communication.

Having said that, I don't know how you used it exactly and what your dog is like. I have no experience in wolf hybrids, but I know they are not like our dogs and can be much more difficult. Wolves and hybrids aren't as attached to their humans like normal dogs, so training them with positive methods might not work in the same way, I'm not sure. (I think because of that, those dogs shouldn't be bred because we can't give them the life they need but as I understand it, your Ben was a rescue?)
So, I'm not in a position to judge you for using an e-collar on your dog. Nor am I able to say whether your dog is scared, traumatised or anything like that as I've never met him. I don't think any of us can. It seems like you put a lot of thoughts into it and didn't make the decision lightly.
I still believe that there are probably different ways of dealing with Ben's problem, but sometimes that can take years and if you didn't want to just manage his problems during that time and keep him on a lead at all times, that was your decision. Again, I'm a bit on the fence here because I still don't agree with e-collars in general but without knowing the situation and without being able to provide an actual solution to your problem, I have to accept that in your case it helped you and your dog.

never knew about e-collars until I joined this site (along with loads of other stuff I didn't know about util then!) everything I read about them says they should not be used to control aggression and never used when a dog is 'fighting'. Giving the reason as it will make the dog think the other dog is 'inflicting the pain'. That confirms that they do cause PAIN.

BUT and for me this is a bit BUT .... that rather depends doesn't it on the OWNER who is in control of delivering the burn or shock fully appreciating that fact?

As was said on the thread about dogs attacking - people often behave totally unpredictably when in those situations and I'd bet my life that there are some owners whose dogs were wearing these and they DID use them in those circumstances.

And if anyone can buy one I'd also bet some who buy them don't give a fig about the advice that comes with them. If all dog owners were 'responsible' we wouldn't read so many stories involving those who arent'. I know this is true anyway because I've also been reading about horrific injuries and burns inflicted on dogs due to the use of them. And, apparently, they can 'malfunction' too and have done so when exposed to rain. And older ones are more dangerous than newer ones.

Therefore, on balance, I think it would be safer and better if they were just not allowed to be sold at all.

If you google 'shock collar burns' you will plainly see that it is not the case that everyone who buys and uses these is doing so in the fashion that Gnasher describes - and the use of the word 'buzz' instead of 'shock' to me is just trying to make them sound harmless.