Thanks Ziva, but I'm still a bit confused.

If arnica wouldn't cause the symptons if taken in large quantities (e.g. as is Ebmedic's example), wouldn't it be classed as a natural (or is it herbal?) remedy rather than a homeopathic one?

I'm just finding this pretty interesting because I've only recently started to look into natural alternatives for treatment for the dogs and previously I would have used the word 'homeopathic' for anything which wasn't a drug. I can now see that this isn't the case.

I'm coming to the conclusion, that at least as far as the dogs are concerned, I would happily use natural remedies, but would be more retistant about using homeopathic ones.

Hali,

your confusion is quite understandable as it is very difficult to get an alternative medicine adherent to define their medicine accurately. As you may have noticed there is no attempt to explain what homoepathy actually is - merely posts that denigrate my understanding and attempt s to clarify the position for people who may be (understandably) less willing to put up with vitriol from believers .

I suspect you have understood the situation perfectly. Trust your own logic and reasoning.

Actually, I was rather hoping you would correct your statement about Arnica. As it stands, it seems I am right; you do not understand homeopathy correctly, yet insist on ridiculing me instead!

And, for the record, I explained my understanding of homeopathy in detail on the other homeopathic thread, yet of course, you chose to ignore that posting.

Hali, sorry, I was waiting for Mr Medic to correct himself since he portrays himself as knowing so much and I so little. Alas....

So, to answer your questions - homeopathic preparations are made up from minute doses of herbs, minerals or animal products such as bee venom. They are repeatedly diluted and agitated so that only miniscule amounts actually enter the body - it is not the medication itself that does the work - the medication simply carries a 'healing energy' derived from the original material.

The way it works is to match a medicine precisely to all the symptoms. If a symptom is missed, or the medicine and symptoms are not matched 'like for like' then homeopathy will fail. This is not a problem as the medicine will not affect the body if it is incorrect because the medicine is purely a 'healing energy' that stimulates the body to repair itself. It's not like a vaccine that physically creates the disease, nor is like conventional medicine with side effects, so if the healing energy it provides is the wrong one, there will be no effect.

Also, the reference to "cause the symptoms if taken in large quantities" is if it was taken in it's raw state. You would have to seriously overdose on a homeopathic medicine to experience any adverse effects since the original ingredient is so diluted and agitated, it is only the "memory" that is left, not the original potency, and it is that "memory" that provides the healing energy.

Take arnica, the example being used. Homeopathic Arnica is created from the herb leopard's bane which is known to produce symptoms of (inter alia) fever, hemorrhage, black and blue spots under the skin from bleeding etc. So, this is in fact inkeeping with the "like for like" definition of homeopathy. Taken in large doses (in it's original state), leopard's bane will infact cause bruising.

Thank you Ziva, all interesting stuff

Yes, very intersting.

I found this link:

http://abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Arn

..which basically describes the symptoms that various compounds will produce in high doses. If you recognise any of the symptoms in yourself then the homeopathic solution might help you.

My dog has allergies that modern medicine can only do so much to help.

I have a sore hip due to a spasm in the external rotators and subsequent muscle imbalances that modern medicine and physiotherapy is having trouble in fixing. There is nothing wrong apparantly, yet I can't straighten my hip.

I have a friend with a bladder problem - constant urge to urinate - that medicine says is in her mind. She's had it for three years.

Now that site I've linked to I found hard to follow. Ziva, does that book you recommend list symptoms and suggest treatments that might help? Can you quote a little snippet from the book so we get an idea of how usefull we might find it?

EDIT: All three listed problems have had an absolute fortune spent exploring 'scientifically proven' methods. To no avail. Spending a few pounds on homeopathy has to be worth it even if the chances of success are slim. The important thing is that it won't do harm - unlike many 'proven' methods...which do harm and fail to work.

Don Hamilton - Homeopathic Care for Cats and Dogs: Small Doses for Small Animals.

This book is said to be the most comprehensive manual for homeopathy for animals, however I learnt of it after I bought mine! so I use Dr Pitcairns guide, just as good although it has less homeopathy in it as it is a general health guide as well.

If you go here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Homeopathic-.../dp/155643295X you can use the "Click to look inside" option above the picture to view an extract and the table of contents.

Or, here's an example from the book I have by Dr Richard Pitcairn (who actually teaches homeopathy to vets):

Not sure where this lengthy explanation differs in any fundamental way from the briefer version I gave. Perhaps we can be enlightened. - If it causes the symptoms then it can be diluted to cure. Admittedly I did not include the succession steps so perhaps some confusion can be explained.

1. If after succusing and labeling 2 different tinctures the labels fall off can we tell if the two are different. If I go to a homeopath what quality control measures are in place to allow the consumer to have confidence in the product. Is this tested by an independent examiner. Of course if the bottles are all water it doesn't matter.

2. If a poorly prescribed homeopathic medicine can fail is that the fault of homeopathy — or is it because evil homeopaths wish to prolong disease in an attempt to increase their profits. I don't believe that big pharma is the only evil organisation on the planet.

3. Arnica - Once again we see the shifting goal posts. First it is arnica, now it is Leopards bane. This name covers at least 4 plants ONE of which is arnica montana and is used as a herbal medicine in the therapy. Two others are mountain bushes. The final one is aconite which as far as I can see causes cardiac toxicity. None cause bruising although arnica can cause gastroenteritis cardiac disease (This information was grabbed from a herbal website and may suffer from species confusion). None cause bruising like problems — nor the signs outlined above.

4 I would note if arnica does indeed cause these signs,it is a very superficial similarity as toxicity sounds like a vasculitis response. This is very different from physical trauma.


5. None of this matters one jot if you can show an effective response in a well defined non limiting disease. Lets say tetanus.

As I have already said, I am here to discuss health issues and swap ideas with dog lovers, not here to play games with academics.

So instead, I will defer to the words of an excellent homeopathic vet....

not all water

A 30C dilution contains 1 part in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000 of active ingredient. Plus the vibrations of the source material so I've been told.

Welcome to the Endarkenment.