I always find it strange that we (collective 'we') promote breeding dogs that are 'fit for purpose' when, in fact, we don't. Having to mutilate a dog to make it fit for what is was supposedly bred for is not 'fit for purpose'.

Fox hunting is illegal here. So is murder, burglary, etc, etc, etc. Unfortunately, like everywhere in this World of ours, there are those willing to break the Law

No it is NOT legal for foxhounds to kill foxes - this is very much ILL-egal. But sadly, just as in the States, laws are flouted.

By the way, it is Great Britain, not Great Brittan.

No I did not - you clearly do not know your own country's laws. If you google it -I cannot be bothered - you will discover that there are only around 9 states in the USA that actually adhere to the law of only allowing certain types of dogs to be docked, GSPs included.

As much as I revere GSP as a breed, I would disagree with you that they are the greatest hunter ever bred. Certainly in this country they are used primarily to "point" and to retrieve game. It is true that they are brave and inveterate hunters - Lizzie was a nightmare at chasing game, especially deer and would become temporarily deaf to all calls and whistles. I stand by my opinion that docking is cruel and unnecessary - especially cut short as your girl's is. It is an inhumane and painful procedure. So the tail may become damaged during hunting - so what? I had a labrador who used to wag his tail so hard he broke it several times and frequently would cause it to bleed profusely - tails do seem to bleed a lot. But did we have him docked? Certainly not. My current dog Ben, a beautiful Alaskan Malamute cross, has the most gorgeous bushy wolf tail which frequently becomes matted and engorged with horrendous burrs and brambles which are very difficult to remove because he hates to have his tail touched. But I certainly would never consider chopping it off merely for convenience and to avoid myself and the dog some discomfort.

Very well said Chris. You make a very good point (no pun intended!!) in your first paragraph.

Your second .... absolutely agree

So there are no foxhunts in GB anymore?

Think again http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/eart...y-changed.html

Do breeders still crop the ears of foxhounds in GB? Why was this ever done in the first place?

States can make their own laws here for certain things, so your belief that only 9 states uphold a federal law makes no sense. There is no ban on tail docking here.

As for GSP's being the best hunter, sure this is opinion, but we have crossbreeds here of GSP's and English pointers and they are the deaf to calls, a GSP never has to be called, as it will follow or stay within sight distance of the handler, which coincidentally is also shooting distance in the bush. Foxhounds and English pointers are useless for hunting in this regard because they are ALWAYS 1 to 5 miles ahead of the hunter, who can not shoot anything that far off.

Nicky Ann
Never heard someone spout soo much bull sh@t as you do
You obviously have no concept of the role HPR's work
Of course as you work YOUR pointers in a 5 mile radius (you've quoted this several times ) how the heck would you know what you're dog was up too do you have x Ray vision oh forgot you just shock them
Get your facts correct before opening ones gob on subjects you obviously know nothing about

We didn't say that. The law in this country - and by the way I don't agree with it - is that it is illegal to hunt to the death foxes with hounds. However, the hunts in this country of which they are many are still allowed to go out fox hunting - in other words, chase the fox, but the hounds are not allowed to kill the fox, this is done by a marksman. I personally think it totally wrong, but there we are, no country is perfect. You have it written into your constitutional rights that Americans have the right to own firearms - with the resultant consequences about which I do not need to tell you. There is a saying here - the Law is an ass!! And sometimes it is.

I have never heard of foxhounds' ears being cropped - I will google it.

I'll find my source and come back. The problem with America is that it is a vast country made up of many states, each with their own laws. For instance, in some states it is totally legal to own a high percentage wolf cross, in others it is totally not. This is asinine to say the least! At least we don't have different laws in different counties in the UK!

As I said, no country is perfect.

Found part of what I was looking for - the following is an article by Dr patty Khuly, entitled: "Laws on Docking, Ear Cropping and Declawing and why they suck!" Having read her bio, she seems to be a good egg.

"Go ahead … ask any veterinarian in the US. Not one will give you a straight answer regarding the legality of tail docking, ear cropping, declawing and other surgical procedures deemed “medically unnecessary” by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA).

That’s because there is none. Despite the hotly contested nature of these procedures with respect to animal welfare, the shocking truth is that these procedures are almost entirely unregulated.

Most state laws either disregard these issues entirely or offer simple restrictions that hint at the unseen reality of how most of our pets’ “unwanted” bits are treated.

To help offer some perspective, I’ve broken things down by category:

Tail docking in dogs

“Docking” refers to amputating a dog’s tail. It’s most commonly performed without anesthesia at three days of age for cometic reasons. “Breed standard” is the most oft-cited reason for docking.

Functional reasons for docking are often hotly debated by those who support it, but here’s the honest truth: Dogs who might theoretically benefit from increased functionality or reduced injury rates as a result of docking are in the extreme minority. (Here's the AVMA's policy on this.)

Only two states regulate this activity.

Maryland: This is the only state that requires a veterinary license and a reason before lopping off a pet’s tail. (“Appropriate” is the term the statute applies.) It’s also the only one that considers anesthesia a requirement.

Pennsylvania: PA prohibits any docking of a dog’s tail after five days of age. But only if you’re a layperson. If you’re a veterinarian and you use anesthesia, you can perform a “tail dock,” but only after twelve weeks. In between the fifth day and twelfth week, tail docking may only be performed by a licensed veterinarian and only if it is deemed medically necessary.

Ear cropping in dogs

Ear cropping is a cosmetic procedure whereby the ear flaps are vertically incised to allow them to stand upright. It serves no other function than to help a dog adhere to a certain breed standard. It does not prevent ear infections or improve a dog’s “balance.” While it’s illegal in most of the Western world, it’s only regulated in nine US states. (Here's a past post on this and the AVMA's policy.)

Connecticut, Maryland, New Hampshire, New York and Pennsylvania: These states explicitly prohibit ear cropping except when performed under anesthesia by a licensed veterinarian.

Maryland: MD takes it one step further. It also demands that the ear cropping be “appropriate for the animal,” stopping just shy of the words, “medical necessity.”

Illinois: This state prohibits “animal torture” but makes an exception for “alteration” of an animal as long as it’s done “under the direction of a licensed veterinarian.”

Maine: While Maine explicitly prohibits “mutilation,” it makes an exception for procedures performed by a licensed veterinarian. (Never thought of myself as having a license to mutilate.)

Massachusetts: This state restricts ear cropping to the purview of licensed veterinarians alone.

Washington: It states that it prohibits ear cropping except when it’s considered a “customary husbandry practice.”

She goes on to say:-

"The states whose animal welfare laws have been either created or amended to help regulate how and when pets should undergo medically unnecessary procedures, if at all, are to be commended. They are, after all, in the minority. As such, they’re on the vanguard of a slow moving front that champions the welfare of animals over human vanity and personal convenience.

Nevertheless, I’ll be frank: It’s my take that these state laws almost uniformly suck. But not just because they hedge, waffle and prevaricate. Rather, they suck because in their embarrassing degree of equivocation and side-stepping, they testify to the presence of an insidious streak of animal treatment most of us either deny or simply don’t think about.

I mean, after reading what the states who regulate these procedures have to say, am I the only one who wonders about all the other states?

Think about it:

All states but Maryland will allow you to cut off your own dog’s tail for any reason whatsoever. Pennsylvania is the only state that says you’ve got only a five-day window to make up your mind if you want to DIY your dog’s tail dock.
When Washington state says that it prohibits ear cropping except when it’s considered a “customary husbandry practice,” it opens the door not only for veterinarian-performed ear crops but for veterinarian-directed ear crops (which means a veterinarian does not actually have to perform the procedure), and, indeed, for anyone else who wants to crop ears.
All but five states allow that pets de-barked by non-veterinary laypersons with no requirement for anesthesia or pain relief whatsoever. (Have you ever seen what this procedure entails?)
So does that mean that in all forty-eight, forty-one, and forty-five other states (respectively) you can slice and dice your own dogs’ tails, ears and throats? Well … yes.

In fact, here’s the thing: While there are no solid stats on this, it’s a safe bet that most ear crops, dewclaw removals and tail docks undertaken in this country are not performed by veterinarians.

Why? Not only because veterinarians are increasingly principled about performing unnecessary cosmetic procedures (though it’s true that we are), but also because we veterinarians are expensive. (It’s pricey to be educated, use drugs and keep things clean.)

And since the bulk of purebred pets no longer comes from responsible individuals but from commercial breeders looking for the least expensive product, you can be sure they’ll be cropping, docking, de-dewclawing, declawing (and anything else they think future purebred owners will want) as inexpensively as possible.

What’s more, it’s also a safe bet that the animals who undergo these procedures are not being treated according to the high veterinary standards of care you might envision in your mind’s eye when you buy that pet shop Min-Pin. After all, when a handful of “progressive” laws have to mandate anesthesia, it’s because it’s considered common practice by some to perform these procedures without it.

And this from the AVMA website: I owe you an apology - it is 9 states that have controls regarding EAR CROPPING, not docking - woops!

"Tail Docking
(see AVMA policy)
There are currently 14 states that regulate tail docking in some form. Massachusetts, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, and Washington prohibit the docking of a horse’s tail. Connecticut, Michigan and South Carolina prohibit tail docking of a horse unless it is determined to be medically necessary by a licensed veterinarian. In New Hampshire, permission must be granted by the state veterinarian before a licensed veterinarian may perform a tail docking procedure on a horse. Illinois prohibits the tail docking of a horse unless it is proven to be a benefit to the horse and California prohibits the docking of horses’ and cows’ tails except in emergency situations. Rhode Island prohibits tail docking of cows unless done under certain circumstances for veterinary purposes.

Ohio allows tail docking of livestock with some restrictions. However, as of January 1, 2018, tail docking can only be performed by a licensed veterinarian and if the procedure is determined to be medically necessary.

Maryland and Pennsylvania are the only states that have provisions restricting the tail docking of dogs. Pennsylvania prohibits the docking of a dog’s tail that is over 5 days old. The law does not prohibit a veterinarian from performing a tail docking procedure if the dog is at least 12 weeks old and the veterinarian is using anesthesia. Between 5 days and 12 weeks of age, tail docking may only be performed if it is deemed medically necessary by a licensed veterinarian. Maryland law provides that only veterinarians may perform the procedure using anesthesia and only when it is appropriate. (Maryland law goes into effect on October 1, 2014.)


Frankly that is what we call a bugger's muddle!! I think our law here in GB is much better whereby you are only allowed to mutilate certain listed breeds, or for a specific medical reason.