Totally agree with where Dizzy was coming from - there are far too many rottie crosses being bred deliberately at the moment. The latest popular crosses seem to be Rott x DDB and Rott x Mastiff (no doubt to appeal to the I want a big rottie brigade - wish people would realise they aren't meant to be huge!).

I had Grace booked for well over a year because I was so impressed with the breeder's ethics. She only has two litters from a bitch, endorses all the paperwork, makes you sign a breeder's agreement which ensures the pup comes back to her (she's just got one of Grace's sisters back due to her owner getting a job overseas) and she just has such interest in all the pups - she phones the owners every couple of weeks without fail to see how they are getting on.

I would go for the usual stuff:

1. Sire and Dam to have good results from breed appropriate health testing;
2. Dam not to have had in excess of three litters (but I prefer two!);
3. Dam not to be under two years of age;
4. Pedigree endorsements - people can get a bit huffy about this but I think it shows the breeder cares about the pups;
5. Lifelong agreement to take the pup back;
6. Breeding wanting regular updates;
7. Full backup service;
8. Breeder to show extensive knowledge on the breed (seems to be a trend at the moment of having a breed for two minutes and being an expert)
9. Sire is an outside dog - I'm always sceptical of breeders who have used their own stud, although it's not impossible for them to have a stud that compliments the dam, it's rare;
10. Doesn't differentiate between a good home or a show home. I appreciate that breeders want to get progeny in the ring but feel a good home should come first.
11. Only to breed from KC registered stock (thinking of recognised breeds here, in Rotties there is no excuse for breeding from non kc registered dogs)

I'll shut up now.

Before I joined any forums I really didn't know much about dogs - finding out sonny has a heart murmer has made me realise how important a good breeder is. I never asked the right questions, I saw an advert in the paper and went and saw the pups and fell in love - I wouldn't swap sonny for the world but I won't make mistakes like that agian. I had done everything I thought like researching the right breed but as he is my first dog I never thought about good breeders. To be honest the family where lovely and sonnys mum was a fab dog but that is not enough and I really feel that enough isn't done to educate people when looking for the perfect dog.

Although sonny is perfect enough for me !!

Sam xx

aww *hugs* @ Sam

Nursey, I agree with everything you say except the part Kinzy disagrees with you on. Working qualities of dogs are bred out by kennel clubs that get their own idea of what breeds should become, not at all keeping them in the state they were meant to be. The mastiff is a prime example. These dogs can't walk a mile without overheating, and if you look at the typey neapolitan mastiffs, you'll see what I mean. The next dogs we'll see going to heck is the Cane Corso and the Presa as they have been picked up by clubs, haven't they? Look at their bodies now, they'll start looking like the neo not long down the road, mark my words.

Because of the condition of the mastiff, I was forced to get bandogs. Yes, you buy these crossbreeds and they cost as much as a purebred and even more in some places. If mastiffs were in decent shape I would have loved to buy a purebred one. Unfortunately after talking to breeders, these dogs can't get around much anymore so I have bandogs because I love mastiff personalites, but I need a dog that can get around.

I'm all for breeding out undesirable qualities like animal agression, etc., but not a dogs right to move around comfortably.

Hi Barabra, I think our two countries are referring to different organisations as kennel clubs. I am talking about THE Kennel Club, the national organisation that you call the AKC. I believe you may mean breed clubs are responsible for the deterioration of a given breed, and I would agree, but breeds can be and are being wrecked by people who don't know what they are doing.

That is why it is important for the guardians of a breed (the current generation of breeders) to have a long foundation, love and interest in a breed, and we should discourage novice owners from breeding willy nilly from substandard bitches, using the dog down the street as a stud simply because he's convenient.

In the UK, puppies are registered with the Kennel Club, so that their ancestry can be traced from the national database, and so that they can be exhibited at canine events held under Kennel Club rules, Crufts included. Any dog that is not registered with the KC is not eligible for the above, and neither can any of it's offspring be registered subsequently.

There are other registries that will take money from people in return for printing off a supposed certificate, but that's all they get. I'm sure you must have similar things in the USA. It is these that I advised against.

nusrey first offLOLOLOLOOLOOOLOLO at your post read wat you said and tell me what dogs that wins at crufts can carry out function there supposed to be insteade of grooming pets>???

There are already distinct physical differences between working and show strain breeds of some gundogs, the working springer, IMO, looks like a different dog to the the show springer, and I think that can be said for a number of other dogs such as the cocker, labrador and golden retrievers
and a working strain dog wouldn't have a snowflake in hells chance of being placed in a show.
Surely if breeders were breeding dogs that conformed it wouldn't matter if the dog worked or not, they all would look very similar.

Edited to say if a springer for example, has a KC pedigree certificate then in my eyes the KC system has a flaw in it, where by dogs can be registerd as something they're not, i.e a springer should look like a springer for the show ring and work like a springer in the field. And clearly they can't as things stand. So how can that be comformity.

This topic is tricky and gets really heated. I'm bailing...

:smt102 :smt039

Me too Barbara, There's always one that can't play nice. You just can't have a sensible discussion with some people

Oh no, I wasn't saying that I just have seen where this goes on other forums