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Location: Wiltshire UK
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,404
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05-06-2012, 11:03 AM
Of course training a dog which only requires food or a toy is easy, but it is entirely possible to manufacture a drive for food and toys, it takes longer, it is harder, but you just have to think outside the box.
So, I TAUGHT my Weimaraner to tug for food until tugging became almost as much fun.
Using the premack principle of "you do this then you get (opportunity to sniff, play with dogs, run, eat, play with toy, cock your leg" etc everything can be trained.
The key is controlling access to what the dog wants. If you cannot control this, then you are right, you are up a creek without a paddle, but things like leads, doors, fences, lines control access to a lot of things.
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Location: Scotland
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,600
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05-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher 
The problem is with treats - even wonderful ones like sausages and liver - is that if you have a dog who is not motivated by food, then it is not helpful. Tai is motivated, but Ben is not, and his father was just a nightmare. He was not motivated by anything - food, praise, toys, noting - the only thing that motivated Hal was doing what Hal wanted to do at any one moment - which is why I always lovingly describe him as "a git"
All dogs are motivated by something
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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05-06-2012, 12:12 PM
The Premack principle really does work
With Mia when I first got her I spent LOTS of time with her in a safe place rewarding any contact with me with being sent off to play/sniff do whatever she wanted
Then after a while she would come back to me and bug me to work so she could get sent off to play - and often she would hardly even go away to play cos she wanted to work some more to get the reward
Same thing clicker trainers often see
The animal will work REALLY hard to get the click to get the treat but gulp down the treat or even ignore it to get back to working to get the next click
I can work my dogs with an open pot of treats and they wont even look at them because they are working to get the click to get the treat
even tho the reward is something they could just go and get themselves if they wanted to
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Location: Wiltshire UK
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,404
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05-06-2012, 12:20 PM
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Location: Stalybridge, Cheshire
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,159
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05-06-2012, 02:15 PM
SB, when you talk about the food tracking and hunting, Mindy is VERY food motivated, so would probably be a good 'game' to keep her switched on to me.
I will start this in the garden. There are a lot of trees with long grass down at the bottom, so will begin there. Thanks.
I'm hoping that in a couple of weeks, I will be posting with some achievements. (Says me wishing and hoping)
Thanks all, once again.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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06-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Jet&Copper
So you could use what it is exactly Hal wants at any given moment as his reinforcer? Even if it's just "freedom" he wants.....
All dogs are motivated by something
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
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07-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Yes absolutely - Hal was motivated by just doing what he wanted to do at any one time. It was a battle of wits from start to finish, for the whole of his 10 years he remained aloof, unconcerned, but utterly loyal and devoted to us, his pack. It is not possible to describe Hal in words, you had to be there to witness it - even Mary Rae could do nothing with him, and she was one of many who tried to tame the beast!! How I do miss that dog
That's Premack
Works ever so well as long as the timing is correct. For example I've seen people trying to use it, and asking for a Loose lead and then when the dog gives it, they then delay before unleashing the dog, or delay and ask for a Sit because that's what they always do, and then the link between the behaviour and what the dog wanted so much, is gone. So timing is important.
Wys
x
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Location: Scotland
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,600
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07-06-2012, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Yes absolutely - Hal was motivated by just doing what he wanted to do at any one time. It was a battle of wits from start to finish, for the whole of his 10 years he remained aloof, unconcerned, but utterly loyal and devoted to us, his pack. It is not possible to describe Hal in words, you had to be there to witness it - even Mary Rae could do nothing with him, and she was one of many who tried to tame the beast!! How I do miss that dog
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Location: n/a
Joined: Jan 2011
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07-06-2012, 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by Deb/Pugglepup
Mindy is being really Norty! We have now had her for 10 months (adopted at 10 months).
Her recall is absolutely atrocious. I have gone right back to basics with her. I started on the clicker training, because my methods which I used with Molly have not worked at all. Molly is so good, she is able to walk off lead anywhere. Although I don't, I know she could.
So with Mindy I have had her on a long line for the past two months. Using clicker and treats. She is doing a perfect sit and stay, but recall on walks is not working at all.
I am just wondering if it is her stubborn breed (beagle X). Once that nose goes down, there is no chance of her coming back when off lead. I tried her off lead this morning when the park was empty, she found a rabbit. The tail was bobbing along, and I just knew that there was no chance. I waited 10 minutes for her to realize that I was still there. No chance will I ever walk her off lead again.
I just do not know what to do with her. I am so upset. She is a lovely dog, with a wonderful personality. She behaves so well in the house and garden, but once she gets out for a walk, it's as I'm not even there.
What am I doing wrong with her? Can anyone offer any tips please because I am at my wits end. I feel so disappointed. Not with her, with myself.
Don't get too worked up!
A lead/recall are not 100% forms of controll over ones dog. While they are important it is difficult to controll ones dog on a lead if another is trying to pin them/chase them or snap at them.
As equally as it is difficult to call your dog back if another dog is chassing them to the ground!
Ive experienced both of the above and find people rely too much on a lead to controll their dog.
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Location: Wiltshire UK
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