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Elisabeth
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Elisabeth is offline  
Location: Ontario, Canada
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 54
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12-01-2010, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
possibly not Elisabeth I was just interested to know what method Labman (who has some 'unusual' training methods particularly when it comes to puppies ) uses.

Labman says..

I think if someone states firmly what should or shouldn't be done and is in disagreement with others they should be prepared to state what methods they use.

I think Labman is sort of unrealistic in his statement to be totally honest.

Puppies ARE GOING TO BITE, it's what they do. It's what WE DO that matters, I would be curious to hear Labman's techniques on this topic as well. Hopefully he will return.

I am new and will wait to respond, to what is said before I cast judgments.
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Labman
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12-01-2010, 08:21 PM
If by BI, you mean to bite gently, I don't teach that. You can teach a dog not to bite at all different ways, but it is going to be quite confusing to the dog if biting a little is OK and later it isn't.

The earlier a puppy starts learning people are different and you lose their company if you bite at all, the better. Even starting at 7 weeks, it still takes a while.

Young Labs, which I know best, and other puppies tend to very bad about biting. You see a litter of them, and all the ones that are awake are biting another one or themselves. I am not even sure they realize that when they are alone, if they quit biting, they would quit being bitten. At 3 to 4 months they are getting their adult teeth, and it seems they spend every waking moment biting or chewing. One thing you can do at that stage is to knot and wet a piece of cloth. Then freeze it. The cooling will soothe the gums. Only let the puppy have it when you are there to watch it. I maintain a Lab's favorite chew toy is another Lab. Otherwise they settle for any person they can. They keep hoping to find one that won't yelp, jerk their hand away, and leave.

You just have to keep on correcting them, hundreds of times, not dozens. Provide sturdy, safe toys such as Kongs and Nylabones. Avoid things they can chew pieces off and choke on them. Keep them away from electrical cords. Crates are essential for most young Labs and other dogs.

The pet stores are full of toys that many dogs will quickly chew up into pieces they could choke on or cause intestinal blockages. If you are not there to watch, stick to sturdy stuff such as Nylabones and Kongs. Keep a close eye on chew toys and quickly discard anything that is coming apart in pieces. Rawhide is especially bad because it swells after being swallowed. I don't trust any of the consumable chews. The dogs just gnaw them down to a dangerous size too quickly. These problems are the worst with, but not limited to, large, aggressive chewers such as Labs.
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Elisabeth
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12-01-2010, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
If by BI, you mean to bite gently, I don't teach that. You can teach a dog not to bite at all different ways, but it is going to be quite confusing to the dog if biting a little is OK and later it isn't.

The earlier a puppy starts learning people are different and you lose their company if you bite at all, the better. Even starting at 7 weeks, it still takes a while.

Young Labs, which I know best, and other puppies tend to very bad about biting. You see a litter of them, and all the ones that are awake are biting another one or themselves. I am not even sure they realize that when they are alone, if they quit biting, they would quit being bitten. At 3 to 4 months they are getting their adult teeth, and it seems they spend every waking moment biting or chewing. One thing you can do at that stage is to knot and wet a piece of cloth. Then freeze it. The cooling will soothe the gums. Only let the puppy have it when you are there to watch it. I maintain a Lab's favorite chew toy is another Lab. Otherwise they settle for any person they can. They keep hoping to find one that won't yelp, jerk their hand away, and leave.

You just have to keep on correcting them, hundreds of times, not dozens. Provide sturdy, safe toys such as Kongs and Nylabones. Avoid things they can chew pieces off and choke on them. Keep them away from electrical cords. Crates are essential for most young Labs and other dogs.

The pet stores are full of toys that many dogs will quickly chew up into pieces they could choke on or cause intestinal blockages. If you are not there to watch, stick to sturdy stuff such as Nylabones and Kongs. Keep a close eye on chew toys and quickly discard anything that is coming apart in pieces. Rawhide is especially bad because it swells after being swallowed. I don't trust any of the consumable chews. The dogs just gnaw them down to a dangerous size too quickly. These problems are the worst with, but not limited to, large, aggressive chewers such as Labs.
I would like to know if you could elaborate on how YOU correct them?

Which method do you use? How do you correct that behaviour?
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Elisabeth
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12-01-2010, 08:28 PM
I only have experience with herding dogs (German Shepherds) and it is quite common for them to nip or bite at the heels of a person or other animal to lure them where they want them to go.

I explained how I stop this behaviour and was just curious as to what method works for you.

Labs are hunting dogs and so holding their prey in their mouth is essential to their work, again.. it's in their blood. Just like the German Shepherd will nip to herd.

How do you curve these instincutal behaviours without ruining the natural behaviour of the dog?

You still want them to do what they were bred to do, but you don't want them to do so to you (or any other human).
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Meg
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12-01-2010, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Elisabeth View Post
Puppies ARE GOING TO BITE, it's what they do. It's what WE DO that matters, .
Hi Elisabeth yes that is so.
We have had new owners on here in the past who have without thinking tapped puppies on the nose for play biting or shouted at them which can of course create many other problems.
Some people suggest just walking away when a puppy play bites or putting the puppy in another room and while this stops the behaviour temporally and allows an over excited puppy to calm down the puppy is not learning bite inhibition.

All dogs have the capability of biting under certain circumstances, it is their only form of defence, we can't stop them completely that but we can do is to help prevent any damage.

The dog I mentioned earlier developed a problem with a saliva gland. It became full of fluid which was too thick to be released into her mouth through the tiny duct . The vet would not operate because she was too old and had a heart condition, leaving the gland may have resulted in an abscess. So when the gland filled up I gently expressed it.

Poor old Amy trusted me completely and had no reason to believe I would hurt her but she hated having the gland attended to and would mouth my hand in protest but she would never sink her teeth into me because BI had been reinforced over many years.

Dr Ian Dunbar called by many 'the father of positive reinforcement dog training ' explains about BI in very simple terms in this video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vrPDMc-I-k
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Meg
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12-01-2010, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
If by BI, you mean to bite gently, I don't teach that. You can teach a dog not to bite at all different ways, but it is going to be quite confusing to the dog if biting a little is OK and later it isn't.
.
Labman, tell us one of the many different ways you know of teaching a dog not to bite. The other things you have posted about above , that puppies chew things we already know thank you.

You have told some of us here over and over in many threads that we are 'idiots' and you are an expert and know better than us so please enlighten us .

ETA I don't really expect a reply, you have yet to reply to many other questions asked by members..
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sandrine75
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12-01-2010, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the advice. All i need now is to remember to put it into practice at all times.
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Labman
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13-01-2010, 03:44 AM
I have found the yelp, pull you hand away and leave eventually gets the job done. Holding the mouth shut works. You can use substituting a toy. It is quite possible no one method works the best on all dogs. The bottom line is like some other things, the dog never gets a reward for the unwanted behavior. Instead, it gets praise, petting, treats, and your company for desired behaviors.
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Meg
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13-01-2010, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Labman
If by BI, you mean to bite gently, I don't teach that
Originally Posted by Labman
Profile question ; Believe in using positive training methods?:
Labman ''No''
Originally Posted by Labman
the dog never gets a reward for the unwanted behavior. Instead, it gets praise, petting, treats, and your company for desired behaviors
Labman for someone who doesn't advocate the use of positive training it's good to see you are begining to pick up positive training methods from the many knowlagable members here.
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
I have found the yelp, pull you hand away and leave eventually gets the job done. Holding the mouth shut works. You can use substituting a toy. It is quite possible no one method works the best on all dogs. The bottom line is like some other things,.
Holding the mouth shut it not a good way to teach a puppy not to bite, you risk causing other problems like hand-shyness or agression. You really should ditch this method along with the many other outdated and cruel methods you use like crating seven week old for many hours on mesh without bedding and depriving them of water, suspending puppies by their middles until they stop wriggling and submit, using choke collars and mouse traps to train puppies.

I am really surprised the guide dog association you work for doesn't teach bite inhibition.

Just in case anyone thinks I am being unfair to Labman I should point out that Labman says he represents an organisation and trains puppies on their behalf , that he is a dog expert and the members here are 'ignorant' 'idiots' who don't know anything.
I think it is important to point this out to the people who come here looking for advice from our many experienced members .
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AmyH-Cornwall
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13-01-2010, 10:33 AM
I would just like to add, following Labmans comments that I don't even think he writes them! I have read a few of his comments now and I have seen a lot of them on websites claiming to be giving 'good' training/behaviour tips! I think he copies a lot and is here purely to wind us all up! Have you ever actually told any of us the organisation you work for Labman?
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