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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Jackie
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21-04-2009, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Sarah27 View Post
Aren't we less than 1% differen from a chimpanzee?

I read somewhere that the difference between a domesticated dog and a wolf was 0.02% in the mitrochondrial DNA. That's the same difference as between a caucasian (white person) and a Chinese person. So not much difference really
I beg to differ, I dont think you get many humans swinging from tress, picking each others mites of and eating them, not to mention all the unmentanable things
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Sarah27
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21-04-2009, 04:02 PM
You haven't seen my OH on a saturday night

I take it you meant behaviourally rather than genetically then?
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Vodka Vixen
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21-04-2009, 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
I beg to differ, I dont think you get many humans swinging from tress, picking each others mites of and eating them, not to mention all the unmentanable things
You've obviously never seen the area i live
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Jackie
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21-04-2009, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Vodka Vixen View Post
You've obviously never seen the area i live
Well yes, have to agree with that

You cant civilize them all
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Jackie
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21-04-2009, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Sarah27 View Post
You haven't seen my OH on a saturday night

I take it you meant behaviourally rather than genetically then?
Yes, but is`nt that what we are talking about with the Wolf V Dog??
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Wysiwyg
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21-04-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Over the years, OH has studied both sides of the Mech coin
My view is that Mech has studied the wolves and has found enough to suggest that Schenkel's original views were very wrong. I can't see how anyone can really disagree unless they've studied wolves like he has - which is indepth and over a lifetime almost? Although everyone is entitled to their view of course

and at one time we were in communication with Dorothy Prendergast, who I believe was a friend or colleague of Nicole Wilde. This was back in the days of the Wolf Hybrid Times, which we purchased in a plain wrapper from the States, a bit like a porn magazine !!
Ooh er

You just cannot escape from that DNA ... domesticated dogs are direct descendants from the wolf, they cannot be descendants of a close relative of the wolf, now extinct, because if they were they would not share the same DNA. In addition, adding credence to the argument, is that domestic dogs can be traced back through the mitochondrial RNA to 4 wolf bitches - gray wolf, not some extinct species.
I've just looked at my copy of The Domestic Dog by Serpell and found references I think to the study, there's several by Wayne but I guess the one with the DNA info will be Wayne, R K and Jenks, S M (1991) Mitochondrial DNA analysis implying extensive hybridization of the endangered red wolf..

It is these two irrefutable facts that make me doggedly continue to believe that our dogs are domesticated wolves. This does not mean to say of course that I cannot accept the huge differences between your average labrador and a wild wolf. But having lived with a domesticated high % wolf cross, and in another life with an F1 (I'm not talking about reincarnation here, but another country and a different man !), I know what I am talking about.
I don't think anyone is saying they can't see the wolf with in the dog, but there are many alterations both genetically and behaviourally due to domestication - regarding how they breed, (which is very different) their skulls and even how they make noises (eg wolves don't have much use for barking, whereas dogs use it a lot to communicate).

I accept too of course that a domesticated 100% wolf is not exactly the same as a wild 100% wolf, but there are very, very similar as to make little difference, particularly if they live in a natural pack situation as, say, at Woburn (I believe that pack is no more, but I may be wrong).
Just to be clear, do you mean that you've lived with wolf dogs and with ordinary dogs and so you feel that can prove dogs and wolves are very similar with regards to "alpha" and pack theory, etc? If so can you go into it more?

In particular, their pack instinct, which we still have despite thousands of years of coming out of caves and civilisation. We still have a very strong pack instinct, and a very similar social structure to dogs ... dogs have inherited this from the wolf, and we have inherited it from our cavemen and hunter gatherers.
Dogs studied in the "wild" don't form packs generally though, if they do it's unusual, according to people such as Coppinger who has spent years travelling and studying the subject. At the end of the day, wolves don't really either *ducks* or at least not in the way we originally thought. They have family groups just like humans. Hence it's not appropriate to use "alpha" ...there are some facts that can't be got away from

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Wysiwyg
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21-04-2009, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
I dont think any one disputs the direct link to wolves, but through man and naturally selection, they are as far removed form wolves as we are from Monkeys.
Yes, I'm not disputing it either


Regardless of ancestry, it is correct that the many thousands of years of domestication have sufficiently altered the dog to be very different, agree

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Tassle
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21-04-2009, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post


Dogs studied in the "wild" don't form packs generally though, if they do it's unusual, according to people such as Coppinger who has spent years travelling and studying the subject. At the end of the day, wolves don't really either *ducks* or at least not in the way we originally thought.

Wys
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We recently helped out a lady who had been living in Thailand for a few years and brought a couple of the street dogs back with her.

She was shocked that Coppinger hadn't found feral dog 'packs'. She said that it was very evident on the streets. They were very territorial and would never venture into aother pack's territory.

She would often watch a dog trying to gain acceptance and said somethimes they would, sometimes they wouldn't. (thats how she ended up with one of hers!)

This is just her opinions - I have not seen the situation out there.
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Wysiwyg
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21-04-2009, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
We recently helped out a lady who had been living in Thailand for a few years and brought a couple of the street dogs back with her.

She was shocked that Coppinger hadn't found feral dog 'packs'. She said that it was very evident on the streets. They were very territorial and would never venture into aother pack's territory.

She would often watch a dog trying to gain acceptance and said somethimes they would, sometimes they wouldn't. (thats how she ended up with one of hers!)

This is just her opinions - I have not seen the situation out there.
That's interesting. I suppose territory doesn't necessarily indicate a pack situation though ...I think this kind of interaction has been addressed in the forthcoming study by Casey and Blackwell who critically analyse one or two previous studies regarding feral dogs in various situations

I recall reading about one just recently (not with the Thai dogs!) and it was thought they were living in a pack like manner but it was decided they weren't - reasons were given but I can't rememember who wrote about it. It may even have been Casey/Blackwell again...

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Tassle
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21-04-2009, 05:24 PM
Humm......does anyone know what the criteria is that make a Dog Pack?

Surely if the word 'Pack' describes any social group of dogs then all the obsevations made - wild/domestic/feral are relevent *to that situation*?
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