Thanks Wildmoor. I know that other lines of GSDs have problems, it was just that with all the certification that this type of dog has, I would expect it to look much healthier. It just seems that the comfort of the dog at a standstill has been sacrificed for a certain gait. Mind you, like you say, German breeders do seem to be very proactive in identifying and acting upon problems, so perhaps the conformation of this kind of GSD will change again.

But you intend to get your dogs from farmers who don't do health testing ? that isn't singing from my hymn sheet I am afraid

My Bitches ??? Er Rjj & Wukee are dogs & Jessie is my only bitch. I will be breeding(if she ever has a season)from Jessie to an ISDS dog who has been health tested who goes back to Bosworth Coon, in order to keep the ability & drive tempered with biddablitity & also the external type of dog(ie a strong working dog as opposed to a slightly built or too heavily built dog)

I will not be using just any dog that can work sheep

I've been a BC owner since 1970 & have a very good friend who knows more about BC bloodlines & dog's abilities & health than most BC breeders & I will be looking to him for advice re any dog I am considering

i missed it but my mum told me about it .in a sence im glad utonagans and northern inuits arnt recognized by the kc at least these beatiful dogs arnt gonna be pulled about by judges saying they do not come up to standerd and this and that should be done .at least tua and the people that run the northern inuit society are looking after the dogs with hip scores and dna testing and trying to make owners see sence in doing certain tests on the dogs so that they are not breeding with dogs that suffer with epilepsy and addisans dieseise.epilepsy is a horrible condition to see in dogs and im thinking it would be the same in any other animal.my dog suffers with epilepsy so on this score with epilepsy im resonabally clued up with what im on about but there is still alot to learn about it.these clubs are trying to find out about epilepsy i think this is what the kc should be doing breeding good dogs not just for looks but for their health to.im just skating on the top of the ice with what i have written but its about time owners and breeders started to think in what they are doing with the dogs .the dog carnt help it was born it is still intittled to a life like me and you.ps if any body has a copy of this programme that was on the bbc i will pay for a copy i also have a rhodesian ridgeback and im interested in what was said .

Just thought you wuld like to see Suki, my friend's eight year old ridgeless Ridgeback. I would challenge any of those breeders to look me in the eye and say she should have been culled at birth. She is the sweetest softest dog, full of fun, great with kids and perfectly healthy. She is a much loved pet, and I'm sure most ridgeless pups, if given the chance could find loving pet homes.

Oh sorry, yes should have checked the link. Here it is in tinyurl. Lets hope this works -

http://tinyurl.com/6dhaw8

Only the abstract is viewable but I think that this says it all.

Interesting the ongoing study. I've no doubt that there are other factors that affect the expression of DS. This is the case with just about any disease of genetic basis. Even the ones with apparent simple inheritance eg PRA.

It's well known that the majority of PRA types are inherited as simple autosomal recessives, but this doesn't explain why there is different expression in different dogs ie some will be more severe, onset will vary and progression will vary. These are the factors that may be partly controlled by modifying genes or completely outside genetic control, and subject to environmental influence.

Similarly with Hip Dysplasia. Don't know if the RR is rountinely hip scored but many breeds are. It is now well known that the condition is polygenic and multifactorial, so is largely outside genetic control. But still we know that breeding from those with good hips will be more likely to produce good hips.

This of course doesn't mean that every litter from good hipped parents will produce good hips in the offspring, just as every dog without a ridge will be free from Dermoid Sinus. It's more a case of breeding for the *likelihood* of good health in the offspring.

yes its heartbreaking there are many good people coming out of the breed because of this, average size in a litter is 4
80% will end up in pet homes where owners are not aware of this condition and end up with huge vet bills for an a condition with no cure

you should be able to watch it through BBCi on the computer. I think you have to download some software the first time you use BBCi, but after that you can watch all of their repeats.

Just read the bits you want eh?? every single time I have said I plan to rescue - but if I ever got a non rescue I would only consider a dog whose parents I could see working, and whos grandparents and all the siblings I knew the working history of

I never said just any dog, the farmer I know of (although I am not considering ANY new dog just now and if I did at the moment it would be a RESCUE!) and most I know in that area dont just breed any dog - why would they there is too much work in raising the pups who are worth next to nothing until they have been started on sheep
they breed their best dogs to try and get extra special pups to continue helping them to work the land
Just any old dog could not do the job day in day out, an unhealthy dog would not be kept or bred from simply because most farmers are not going to want to shell out loads of vets bills for a dog that is no good at working

Health testing is not the be and end all, sure it gives us a picture of some conditions now - but it isnt helping with all the conditions that might spring up due to the inbreeding

and for interest, as the genes for shyness and noise sensitivity in collies have been discovered are you also testing for that?? problems like that can make a collies life far more unbearable than slightly bad hips that the dog can live a full healthy life with because of good joint angulation and muscliture

Anyway, as you are only going to read the bits you want and ignore the rest of what I say its really dumb and boring for everyone else to carry on your one person vendetta

You have some kind of problem that I want to get a rescue or 'rescue' a surplus or failed farm dog, tough - not everyone wants a pedigree, I dont want to support that kind of industry of life
And seeing as last time you chucked your toys out the pram and told me I could never get one of your dogs I fail to see why you are trying to 'educate' me that your dogs are so fantastic
You have your idea of good breeding and I have mine

I think its v interesting that the only dogs without HD are racing greyhounds - havent seen them getting health tested years back - guess its just that they didnt breed from unhealthy dogs cos they couldnt do the work (and of course sickeningly they culled imperfect pups)

anyway, you are determined to keep up a fight so I suggest you take it to pm's because this has nothing really to do with the thread and more to do with your problems with me

Thanks again for this, just off to read it.

Yes RR are hipscored

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d4ljk/b00d4l8y/

It's only available online for one week so don't miss it.