I stand corrected then, fair point if there are alot of show dogs that are athletic, but seeing as alot of the champions don't even resemble staffy's, I still think that it will go the same way as the bulldog.

and neither do some of the *so called* Irish being bred

There are some cracking examples of Irish staffs and some are crap bred crossbreeds- same as with Staffys
There are some cracking KC staffys about and some crap ones too

which takes us back to the same old argument which I am now sick and tired of - that people should only breed to BETTER the BREED

think youll find he fits it to a tee , you tell me were he doesnt fit the standard of 1935 never mind now ,and he is between 15- 18 inches,

Find a pic of "Jim the Dandy" or any of the old dogs, he looks nothing like them.

And I agree Lel

Jim the Dandy 1935 ish

Alport Firecracker 2005


I dont think theres a VAST difference considering theres 70 years of breeding between them

Guys guys guys... Some people may say look, some of you are missing the point - this isnt about the 'looks/fitness' of the sbt it is about the gameness being bred into some of them by the Irish.

If like Tom, you prefer taller, 'more' athletic looking sbts then thats fine - get together with a bunch of reputable responsible like minded breeders and aim to achieve those goals - just don't breed in any gameness. I think that is the message you would get from people trying to see both sides or those concerned that gameness may be a potential problem.

In addition, when you breed to 'better' the breed, it all boils down to personal choice, so whereas one person may like shorter stockier dogs others may like taller slimmer ones etc. Again that is fine but what seems to be a fundemental 'want' is for people to breed out 'gameness' (that doesn't by any way mean breed out fitness, vitality etc just gameness).

I will address Doglisteners post when I get five mins because some valid points can be made.

Stan I have left the debate because I have allready answered the question as to why I like this type of dog, why i prefer them and why I like a dog bred for a purpose and not for looks alone, I answered the question as soon as it was put to me some 5 pages ago it is actually a question I have been asked and answered before you joined this board and I gave the same answers back then, Im sorry to disappoint you all but I dont feel I have "lost" the debate as you put it, because my opinion is different from yours does not mean your right and Im wrong or vice versa.
I dont see the point in commenting further because Ive said all that there is to say on the matter, If certain people want to make insinuations about me based on lies and over active imaginations well thats up to them, I cant change that can I? I am a responsible dog owner who has never done anything to warrant the dogs I keep getting a bad name so as far as Im concerned Im an equal with anyone else on here, despite the fact my dogs dont have a bit of paper to say they are KC registered, they do have pedigrees which allow me to trace how they are bred, and Im happy with the way they have been bred and thats the end of the matter as far as Im concerned.

opinion is always going to differ on this subject, and I see we are now at 17 pages, and were back to posting pics of Kc dogs and arguing whether they are as athletic as irish dogs, well theres a surprise, what a constructive thread this is I think the last one is locked due to it going round and round and getting narky - I refuse to be sucked in by the sly jibes and become a contributing factor in another thread about these dogs becomeing locked.

If your truly interested in why I like this type of dog all you need to do is click on my username and then the bit to see all my posts, you will be able to read everything Ive said on here about Irish dogs game dogs pitbulls and Kc staffs. Pour over it to your hearts content, pick out the spelling mistakes (my picking out yours was intended to be a light hearted laugh, hence the smileys ) there are plenty of them to be found, I type very fast so Im bound to make lots of typos.

You get the general gist though, I dont see any need for me to repeat anything Ive said, but I do get the feeling some of you want me to take back or edit or change some things, but that would be telling lies wouldnt it?
Not my style

Quoted from page 12/13 ( I think)
just incase you cant find it Stan

where?

My post was for Tom to show that some lines are still being bred to the original standard - not to compare against the Irish

but this thread is called Irish staffords
this is what happened last time,
forgive my cynicisim but a couple of pics were posted last time and it became a thread about Kc v irish instead of a thread about irish dogs