tillytails
two americans who apparently sell them.

Clob
I did not understand that at all tilltails can you please explain, thanks

LuckyStar
However, I would like to make a request of the two gentlemen. You keep throwing around the word:' science' and insisting that other people's work and observations are not 'scientific'.

Clob
For such a long post I think you could have at least passed my posts times and pages to which you refer. Having said that no one has put any scientific studies on here that I remember seeing so pass the page and time of posting refs, which as a ‘scientist’ I would have thought you would have automatically included.

Having said that, I myself put one reference on here, Hallgren 1991, they would not be scientifically sound – but the results of the study showed 92% neck & cervical damage out of 400 dogs. I think of hand the period was 2 years research, the dogs were examined by a team of chiropractitioner and vets

LuckyStar.
Please provide details of studies which you have carried out to support all your claims with respect to the use of e-collars on dogs. Just quoting your experience of training dogs in the past isn't scientific enough.

Clob
What studies, are you talking about and who has quoted them? You are quite right, when people quote their experience of training dogs they are not speaking science.

I mean when Minihaha says she uses liver cake I personally would think that no rational person would ask Minihaha to give scientific evidence that the liver cake worked, when people post on the pain their dogs suffer when using things like halter head cages they don’t bring along a team of scientist to support their observations, if someone says to me or posts “I called my dog to me and he came”, no rational person would say “Do you have a scientific study done on it”.

I conclude:
I find the para above suggesting that when all dog owners of any kind give an account of their dogs behaviour e.g. “I called my dog and he came to me” and thinking dog owners go and get a scientific report on it cannot have been written by someone subject a rational uninterrupted thought pattern at the time it was written.

No I am asking you and your friend Lou to back up your claims with the studies that I mention since it is not the dog owners on here that keep referring to 'science' but yourselves.

There is no need for me to quote past posts since your (as in the two of you) referrals to the word 'science' has been sketchy to say the least.

Am I to conclude then that neither you nor Lou have actually carried out any proper studies? If not then I suggest it is foolish to continue to disparage other people's comments as being non-scientific.

...perhaps you can show we where I mention using liver cakes in this thread ? Oh dear Clob, more waffle to cover a lack of answers to Lucky Stars questions no doubt!

I don't actually use liver cakes as it happens

Well said Luckystar

Where do you live ? Do you sell ecollars ?

Excuse me?

You are being very rude and patronising not to mention arrogant.

Suggesting i choose death for my dog is pretty nasty - not that it bothers me because my dog is alive and well thankyou

I think it was interesting that i found something that unclllou has so far never admitted i dont think on any forum, that he does actually use the highest levels of pain (and at high levels they are painful, anyone who doubts this go and buy one that has levels from 0-100 and see just how painful that is).

It's quite simple - pet owners in the UK don't need to teach dogs food refusal, and the methods advised are barbaric, this is my opinion. It is not a matter of life or death, not in the UK and not for any properly protected and cared for dog anywhere.

LuckyStar
No I am asking you and your friend Lou to back up your claims with the studies that I mention since it is not the dog owners on here that keep referring to 'science' but yourselves.

Clob
WHAT STUDIES? are you talking about??

LuckyStar
There is no need for me to quote past posts since your (as in the two of you) referrals to the word 'science' has been sketchy to say the least.

Clob
There certainly is because your suggesting studies were refered to – so Page and time of [posting?

LuckyStar
Am I to conclude then that neither you nor Lou have actually carried out any proper studies? If not then I suggest it is foolish to continue to disparage other people's comments as being non-scientific.

Clob
Ah, now I do understand what you mean by the italicised part of your comment, you mean stuff written by Wiziwg (at least I think that’s what you mean).

No its not foolish, Wiziwig knows nothing at all about e-collars, she has no knowledge or experience except something called ‘e-collars’ exist, so she makes things up which are false and then states non factual stuff as fact, thats opposite to those who use and understand them.

The consequence is, that it is quite legitimate to ask her to support it, which she knows she cannot. At least youre last line did give me some understanding of what you mean,I thnk, so, thanks for the clarification. Oh as you can see, Minnihaha cannot scientificaly support that her dog recalls without even liver cake.

Crikey you are the rude one today, is it OK if I am rude too?

Can't be bothered though

If you check back you will see that i already removed the countries because i couldn't remember who had done what, so removed them as i never post anything I'm not sure aobut, or if i do make a mistake, I remove it or explain.

So please check before you post in future.

Clob, this thread is about the above as well as collars - if you don't clearly discuss this, then I will take it that you made a mistake in your understanding of OC and that you don't understand it clearly after all.[/QUOTE]

I'm taking it you don't want to discuss this further... <g>