I think you have done brilliantly - I take my hat off to you.

Cain sounds as though he's doing so well; I agree with the previous poster: pop a muzzle on, take a deep breath, remove the lead.... and let your lovely lad stretch his legs

Or you could do what I did and get an even longer line, so that Cain can wander further from you but you can still retain some control.

I really do empathise - Dexter is only off the long line in the park when his canine mates are present and they all stay in the main field. BUT even then we've had the occasional, er, blip when Dex gets over-excited.....

For instance, a few weeks ago Dex was playing with his mates, all was fine, then suddenly I saw him stop, ears swivel forward, as he went very still.... I didn't know what had caught his interest but I know him, so I lurched forward to grab him - just as a guy in shorts and football top appeared in the distance, jogging towards us, and carrying a goal post....

I was too slow to grab Dex; he went galloping across the field at this bloke, barking his head off

I couldn't catch him so just had to watch helplessly while screeching 'I'M SORRY - HE IS FRIENDLY' which of course was no help at all to the poor bloke!

When Dexter got nearer, however, he simply stopped, and looked at the guy - and to his credit, the guy just carried on jogging!!

However - Dex is a yellow Lab, and I think that stops some people feeling threatened. Had he been a GSD or Rottie, I can't help thinking the bloke might have reacted differently.....

Oh, and I don't think you are 'worrying' too much - you are being a RESPONSIBLE OWNER. Again, kudos to you; you are doing everything you possibly can to help Cain and to set him up for success AND to protect other people also!

Will you let us know how it goes if you do take that leap and let him off leash?

And if you don't feel ready to let him off yet, don't worry about it - small steps

I think you have done amazingly well and Cain of course.

I would carry on as you are you are. By the sounds of things you are lossening up on the worrying front.

As you know Ollie was reactive to some dogs and some people. I started to trust him and myself more and more when we were experiencing less and less reaction but I think you always have to keep to the back of your mind that the issue whatever it is with them is there and never completley become complacent.

Sounds like you have worked wonders with Cain. I think sometimes we dont realise how our dogs behaviour changes, we always tend to view them how they used to be.

For example my dogs used to be into everything when off lead and Flynn in particular was always rushing about at 100mph getting up to mischief. It was a tough job trying to handle 3 dogs and stopping them doing things they shouldnt but were hellbent on doing anyway. The other day I came across my trainer on a walk and we walked together for a short way. She commented that I gave the impression my dogs were wild and that actually they werent. It wasnt until she said those words that I actually thought about it and realised they were no trouble anymore and no longer stressed me out, they'd calmed down immensely.

My point is I still thought of my dogs as how they were 3 years ago when they were youngsters and tested my patience. I hadnt taken a step back and re-evaluated them and the realisation that they are now totally different dogs was a revelation.

We never get anywhere in life if we dont take a chance.

I know exactly how you feel, but only about the other dogs, not people, and I think you could be right when you say your worrying/over cautiousness could be making matters worse.

Last Sunday I saw 2 dogs approaching us, a lab and a flatcoat, and as they came down the slope, I thought the owner was my friend, so the flatcoat would be Redford, so I had NO fear or worries that these dogs wouldn't be ok, because Zena adores Redford and always lets him take the ball out of her mouth and run off with it. Anyhoo, as they met, Zena's tail was going like mad and so was the flatcoat (the lab was only interested in Georgie) and I let her off and they had a little play and I turned to hubby and said I couldn't understand how he hand't pinched her ball yet........then I realised as the owner came up to us, that this dog was NOT Redford I told the owner what I had thought and he too couldn't understand that his dog hadn't pinched her ball, even though she'd dropped it, coz he said he always takes other dog's balls off them.

Dave turned to me and said "it's YOU, that's the problem"!!!!

The difference is Amanda, I have seen Zena in full fight mode and I never want to see it again, and I will not let her lull me into some false sense of security that she's going to be fine with all dogs, because I know 100% that she will NOT, because there will always be that dog who will give her the attitude and set her off again, so I'm sticking with not trusting her until I see for myself that she's fine with any strange dog. With my dog (Zena), it would only be on initial greeting, after that, YES, I could trust her just like I did with this flatcoat last Sunday when I took the lead off and like I do with so many other dogs we know and meet up with, but she will always be that unpredictable to me, and I'd much rather be safe than sorry should anything happen again.

It's different for me, because I've brought Zena up from a puppy I know WHY she's like she is, because I know every single little thing that has ever happened in our lives together and I can kind of understand why she's like she is now, but until she turns into the passive kind of gsd I've always had in the past, I just can't trust her, sad as it is. Only time will tell with Cain, there's no hurry like Ben Mc says, and the only way you will safely find out is by putting a muzzle on him I suppose, but then you'll always have that worry that he might say the wrong thing to the wrong dog and end up getting hurt himself when you do that. It's a difficult one, but I'm sure we DO make things worse with our negative vibes on some occasions perhaps.

You've done wonders with him, he's progressing well on these behaviour sessions you've been doing, but then is that because he's now used to those dogs being around him? If it's fear aggression, then he might not be so relaxed in other situations with new dogs? In all honestly, I think you've asked the million dollar question here!!!

For me, I'm a great believer in "err on the side of caution" purely because I don't want my dog hurt let alone another dog, and if she does it again, she'll be getting an asbo served on her in this area, coz a bad word travels fast around here. For YOU, it would be more the other humans I would be more worried about, because if anything dire happened there, then you'd risk losing him forever. I think the ONLY way you're going to find out is with a muzzle don't you? You really, really have done an outstanding job so far, so long may it continue.

When you figure out an answer, let me know because I feel like I'm always going to be the same with Casper! Infact, I sometimes forget and worry about Kiki too then remember she's a pretty normal dog, as dogs go Happy to help out where I can though - my properly-fitting guard is supposedly going to be with me next week so more than up for some dog walks a little further afield, we can try Harmondsworth on our own if you like, or maybe try that dog area in Bedfont Lakes on a quiet day. I'll drag OH along and between the four of us we should be able to manage!

How did Cain actually react to people and other dogs before you started training him?

I don't know the answer to your question TBH. I'm completely paranoid about joggers and semi-nervous about cyclists/horse riders/old people/young children. Bo's 'issues' are a little different than Cains (very high prey drive combined with massive excitability) as aggression isn't a worry, but I know that "what if" feeling very well. Although, like your Cain, she has improved a LOT from where she was a year ago...trusting her completely is the issue. I'm not under any illusion that I'll ever be able to trust her completely. I'm not after a perfect dog though, so not being able to trust her 100% isn't too much of an issue for me provided she isn't totally out of control.

How do you begin to start trusting a dog off lead? Or even just trusting a dog in general?

That depends.

The thing is I’m always expecting him to do something or react, I’m constantly aware of potential problems. Is this just sensible if you have a reactive dog, or worrying too much? Cain has been progressing exceptionally well recently. I can’t remember the last time he reacted or lunged at anyone in the street (except a few months back when a jogger that pounded up behind us in the dark, and I think that was probably fair game! He only barked a bit).
Well we will agree to disagree on this. To clarify, I don't mean it was "right" for him to do it and I certainly don't want him to do it. I just meant that I could understand why he did it so I chose not to take it too hard (unlike some of his previous reactions which were unpredictable and I have no idea why. I also have had several GSD owners who said plenty of "normal" GSDs would have done the same thing. I won't be encouraging it though

He’s much calmer out on walks. He can walk down crowded tow paths with joggers and cyclists whizzing by and doesn’t bat an eye lid any more. He’s being doing brilliantly in his dog socialisation classes. Last week he was in the field with 15 dogs (many of them “problem” dogs) and numerous owners and he didn’t put a foot wrong. He’s been running around with all these strangers in class, mostly ignoring them but even getting pats off of a few. He’s been letting visitors in the house with no problems.

Ok I am going to be a bit controversial here.

TBH I would expect a dog such as yours to be ok in a large group of dogs. Technically the dog has been “flooded” therefore, for various reasons, he is unlikely to be reactive in these scenarios because, if you like, there are “too many dogs” to “take on”.

I would expect him to be far MORE reactive with just one or two.

So, what have your trainers said re this?

It's not controversial at all, it's a valid point, it's something I have noticed and considered and is another reason I haven't let him off in the quiet park as I think he'd be more likely to react to a lone jogger than a marathon.

I am delighted with his progress in class but I am yet to see how it will relate to the outside world (as currently avoiding external dogs), I know he's not magically cured and it adds to my apprehension. With the dog socialisation group, they did start off small. First 1:1 was with a single teaching dog, then two teaching dogs, then a teaching dog and a problem dog. They have steadily increased the group sizes over the weeks. I know 15 was a large number, but the group started off with about 5 dogs and then they kept just adding one. To be fair he has been ok at all sessions there, even smaller ones. And it's not that he's getting used to the same dogs as there are different ones each week. I'll discuss this with my dog trainers and see what they say. Next week they want to try him with some smaller dogs, I imagine this'll be one or two carefully picked dogs (I think they have a bossy terrier bitch in mind), so it'll be interesting to see what he does then.

Problem being that the odd jogger does pop up. When it’s quite then something comes out of nowhere, it startles him and he reacts

See my point above. This is what I would expect, it is because of the phenomenon Sudden Environmental Contrast. This is why you can walk a dog through Richmond Park and it will not react to any of the deer as there are hundreds of them.

Walk in a forest and one pops up, totally different story.

So what can you do to help the dog deal with lone problems...?

I’d like to muzzle him as a precaution when he first starts going off lead but that’s incompatible with his favourite squeaky ball, which I use to reward his recall as food isn’t enough.

Actually it is not, because you can take the muzzle off and play with the ball when he recalls.

That's true. I suppose as long as I click when he arrives, he can wait a moment while I clip his long line on, remove the muzzle and then toss the ball.

His recall is fairly good but I’m just scared he’ll fail it and what could potentially happen if he did. Although he’s never done anything worse that run and bark at someone….

This is a justifiable concern as of course this alone could make you liable to action under the DDA.

Exactly. Another reason I am cautious. I couldn't live with myself if I lost him due to putting him in a situation he couldn't handle.

He’s done so well lately that we’ve even finally taken his DAP collar off. It’s been a week now and his behaviour doesn’t seem to have changed at all, he’s coping just fine (I have a spare in the cupboard, should he need it back on).

It may be that it was never him that needed the DAP collar and it had no effect, apart from on you!

No, he definitely did need it. We've tried to remove it twice in the past and he's turned into a lungy monster! we tried many calming remedies and nothing made any difference, except the collar. It did help him, but I think he's ok without it now


My point is how do I find the balance between remaining a responsible dog owner and keeping everyone safe, and realising that Cain’s behaviour is far better, trusting him and giving him some freedom? I was thinking of getting a second long line to give him more freedom and stop reeling him in around strangers and see what happens? What do you think?

I think that a reactive dog will ALWAYS revert to its first learned behaviour when under stress and that you will ALWAYS have to pick and choose your moments re running with other dogs.
But TBH that is no different than what I or many other people do, reactive dogs or not. I make a dynamic risk assessment and determine the probability of my dog reacting to certain individuals.

You may not have to spend the rest of your life scanning the horizon but you still need to be aware of your surroundings and act appropriately.

Of course. I don't think I'll ever be able to fully trust him, and I have no intention of becoming complacent. But I hope to get to a point when I can pick and choose the times to give him more freedom. There are demon yorkies in our local park who a far worse than Cain and the owners just let them off lead anyway, but they get away with it because they are small. On top of Cain's true behaviour, I need to consider how he looks and is perceived as I'm sure he's more likely to get reported, for doing far less, than the mad yorkies simply due to his breeding. It's just I stand in this practically empty green thinking "Go on" but then I worry something will pop up. But if I don't give him a bit of a chance, how will he ever progress?

How do you begin to start trusting a dog off lead? Or even just trusting a dog in general?

That depends.

The thing is I’m always expecting him to do something or react, I’m constantly aware of potential problems. Is this just sensible if you have a reactive dog, or worrying too much? Cain has been progressing exceptionally well recently. I can’t remember the last time he reacted or lunged at anyone in the street (except a few months back when a jogger that pounded up behind us in the dark, and I think that was probably fair game! He only barked a bit).

Well we will agree to disagree on this.

He’s much calmer out on walks. He can walk down crowded tow paths with joggers and cyclists whizzing by and doesn’t bat an eye lid any more. He’s being doing brilliantly in his dog socialisation classes. Last week he was in the field with 15 dogs (many of them “problem” dogs) and numerous owners and he didn’t put a foot wrong. He’s been running around with all these strangers in class, mostly ignoring them but even getting pats off of a few. He’s been letting visitors in the house with no problems.

Ok I am going to be a bit controversial here.

TBH I would expect a dog such as yours to be ok in a large group of dogs. Technically the dog has been “flooded” therefore, for various reasons, he is unlikely to be reactive in these scenarios because, if you like, there are “too many dogs” to “take on”.

This is definitely TRUE, seen it for myself with my own dog, and this is why I was lulled into a false sense of security after my dog's first big punch up! Everybody kept telling me to leave her offlead now, she's absolutely fine, it was a one off that happened, and it will never happen again - now I know they were wrong! This could be why you are seeing such a change at the behaviour classes, so many dogs etc.

I would expect him to be far MORE reactive with just one or two.

Yep!So, what have your trainers said re this?


Problem being that the odd jogger does pop up. When it’s quite then something comes out of nowhere, it startles him and he reacts

See my point above. This is what I would expect, it is because of the phenomenon Sudden Environmental Contrast. This is why you can walk a dog through Richmond Park and it will not react to any of the deer as there are hundreds of them.

Walk in a forest and one pops up, totally different story.

I’d like to muzzle him as a precaution when he first starts going off lead but that’s incompatible with his favourite squeaky ball, which I use to reward his recall as food isn’t enough.

Actually it is not, because you can take the muzzle off and play with the ball when he recalls.

His recall is fairly good but I’m just scared he’ll fail it and what could potentially happen if he did. Although he’s never done anything worse that run and bark at someone….

This is a justifiable concern as of course this alone could make you liable to action under the DDA.

He’s done so well lately that we’ve even finally taken his DAP collar off. It’s been a week now and his behaviour doesn’t seem to have changed at all, he’s coping just fine (I have a spare in the cupboard, should he need it back on).

It may be that it was never him that needed the DAP collar and it had no effect, apart from on you!

My point is how do I find the balance between remaining a responsible dog owner and keeping everyone safe, and realising that Cain’s behaviour is far better, trusting him and giving him some freedom? I was thinking of getting a second long line to give him more freedom and stop reeling him in around strangers and see what happens? What do you think?

I think that a reactive dog will ALWAYS revert to its first learned behaviour when under stress and that you will ALWAYS have to pick and choose your moments re running with other dogs.

again, so very, very spot on imo!

But TBH that is no different than what I or many other people do, reactive dogs or not. I make a dynamic risk assessment and determine the probability of my dog reacting to certain individuals.

You may not have to spend the rest of your life scanning the horizon but you still need to be aware of your surroundings and act appropriately.

How do you begin to start trusting a dog off lead? Or even just trusting a dog in general?

TBH I would expect a dog such as yours to be ok in a large group of dogs. Technically the dog has been “flooded” therefore, for various reasons, he is unlikely to be reactive in these scenarios because, if you like, there are “too many dogs” to “take on”.[/B]

I would expect him to be far MORE reactive with just one or two.

True. It is the `different` that the dog reacts to. The `out of the ordinary`. That, and the direct threat. So someone making eye contact, the `lone wolf`,the single cyclist heading towards you at speed. All of these are threats to a reactive dog. As is the man with a limp or a hat because he is `different`.
So it`s my job to first establish trust and control, then put in place strategies to deal with these scenarios.
After a while they become second nature. I will turn away from eyeballing dogs or people without a conscious decision now. I will put myself between the dog and the ticket inspector. I will mutter Watch Me as we walk up the train.
After a while you walk defensively - and tbh that`s no bad thing, even with non-reactive dogs.

I think that a reactive dog will ALWAYS revert to its first learned behaviour when under stress and that you will ALWAYS have to pick and choose your moments re running with other dogs.

[/B]