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Tassle
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05-02-2011, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog View Post
Ah, ok, don't want to discuss it out in the open and would rather try and bury it here. Fine.

There was an episode of everyone's favorite, Cesar Millan, where the owner was desperately trying to keep her dog away from rattlesnakes. His solution was to use a shock collar and when the dog showed interest in a snake he applied a shock. The dog quickly associated the negative stimulus with the snake and wouldn't approach them. Nifty eh?

So, on further investigation is appears this method is very popular, in fact momentously more popular than anything an R+ trainer has come up with. It's evolved into it's own little industry in areas of the USA where poisonous snakes are prevelant. It's not failproof, it doesn't work 100%, and some dogs have very high prey drives, higher it seems than the collar can train out. However, consensus seems to be in agreement it has a very high success rate.

The only options offered by R+ trainers are:
Teach a good recall
Offer high value rewards for the dog staying away.

I don't see this having a very high success rate because if the owner isn't actually with the dog there's no-one to recall, and there's no-one to offer a high value bribe. Snakes don't mind slithering into gardens when the dog may not have a handler available, so the shock training would still have some significance in terms of results, i.e. the dog leaving the snake alone. The other alternative would be to always keep the dog indoors and never let out without the owner. Now I see that being particularly cruel in a country with that much space and with such good weather. It seems there is an instance where R+ can't compete on the same level as a shock collar.

And on that bombshell......let the slagging off commence.

regards,

Austin
Really? What about teaching the dog to ignore the stimulus? Have you not come across a trainer who has offered that?

BTW - how many trainers do you work with?
DevilDogz
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05-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog View Post
No, enjoying being part of a mob of bullies yet?

regards,

Austin
Theres only two bullies on this thread - and they are the ones that pick on dogs, who cant speak and stand up for themselves.
Lucky Star
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05-02-2011, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by DevilDogz View Post
Theres only two bullies on this thread - and they are the ones that pick on dogs, who cant speak and stand up for themselves.
Indeed!
Meg
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05-02-2011, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog View Post
No, enjoying being part of a mob of bullies yet?
regards,

Austin
Austin do you enjoy being one of a sad minority peddling devices more suited medieval torturers .

Can't you appreciate there are better ways to train dogs?
LuvMyDog
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05-02-2011, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
What's the matter Austin , are you feeling a little peeved that almost no one here wishes to help you promote your devices? .

I suggest you try elsewhere where the members are less discerning ...
Wha....? Is this some kind of mental block. I'm almost sick of stating I'm not here to promote anything. Ok, a lot of you don't like prong collars, I accept that. I'm not going to sell to every dog owner, I accept that. You and everyone you know may never buy a prong collar, I accept that too.

What I don't accept is baseless criticism and double standards which generally follows with no reasoning at all, and no questioning of the status quo. For example:

"Prong collars are designed to cause pain"
No, they're not, they designed apply distributed pressure in a different means to a flat collar.

"Prong collars cause pain"
So do head collars.

"Prong collars dig into the neck"
Headcollars damage the neck and spine

"Prong collars make dogs nervous and withdrawn"
Headcollars have the same result.

"Headcollars only injur some dogs and it's usually the owners fault"
That's the same with prong collars.


So far none of you have been willing to accept the exact same arguments that can be levelled against prong collars can be levelled against head collars. The prong is an easier target because it doesn't look as friendly as a head collar, but as a designed piece of equipment it can easily perform safely and efficiently, and is a valid alternative to equipment a dog simply isn't getting on with, in fact it'd be far kinder to switch over to a prong collar in some cases than to try and battle on with a headcollar.

So how is that a view that's worthy of the bile being directed this way by potential hypocrites that aren't prepared to objectively investigate for themselves while hurting their dogs every day with the wrong equipment. By becoming familiar and sifting through some of the obvious nonsense stated against them, or actually handling one and seeing its effects on a dog it might stun some distractors by not actually being the neck ripping dog harming piece of torture equipment they first imagined. And for anyone to deny another owner that choice and continually laud up an unsuitable piece of equipment is both careless and cruel, it doesn't show me any love towards any animal in that situation.

BTW, want to take exception with any other equipment we sell?

regards,

Austin
Lionhound
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05-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I use collars with at least 16 and more often 127 (dogtras) however this won't be needed for everyone.

Why, when I buy a collar I don't know what its going on. I need something that will work on most.

Clients often use collars with less levels because they can choose one that suits and don't need the all dog approach.

Adam
This would imply the electric collar you would use is more powerful than Joe Public would buy, is this the case?

Also, when buying a collar, what are the the levels measured in?

In the 127 level electric collar, what is its top level (please dont say 127 )

Thanks adam.
pasiphae
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05-02-2011, 06:56 PM
LMD I'll say it again.....do us all a favour and sod off. Find another forum where you can attempt to peddle your goods from your website and leave this one to the people who want to use it for the genuine reason it exists....to get advice and support on humane, sensible and productive dog training and best practice of dog owning
pasiphae
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05-02-2011, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog View Post
Wha....? Is this some kind of mental block. I'm almost sick of stating I'm not here to promote anything. Ok, a lot of you don't like prong collars, I accept that. I'm not going to sell to every dog owner, I accept that. You and everyone you know may never buy a prong collar, I accept that too.

What I don't accept is baseless criticism and double standards which generally follows with no reasoning at all, and no questioning of the status quo. For example:

"Prong collars are designed to cause pain"
No, they're not, they designed apply distributed pressure in a different means to a flat collar.

"Prong collars cause pain"
So do head collars.

"Prong collars dig into the neck"
Headcollars damage the neck and spine

"Prong collars make dogs nervous and withdrawn"
Headcollars have the same result.

"Headcollars only injur some dogs and it's usually the owners fault"
That's the same with prong collars.


So far none of you have been willing to accept the exact same arguments that can be levelled against prong collars can be levelled against head collars. The prong is an easier target because it doesn't look as friendly as a head collar, but as a designed piece of equipment it can easily perform safely and efficiently, and is a valid alternative to equipment a dog simply isn't getting on with, in fact it'd be far kinder to switch over to a prong collar in some cases than to try and battle on with a headcollar.

So how is that a view that's worthy of the bile being directed this way by potential hypocrites that aren't prepared to objectively investigate for themselves while hurting their dogs every day with the wrong equipment. By becoming familiar and sifting through some of the obvious nonsense stated against them, or actually handling one and seeing its effects on a dog it might stun some distractors by not actually being the neck ripping dog harming piece of torture equipment they first imagined. And for anyone to deny another owner that choice and continually laud up an unsuitable piece of equipment is both careless and cruel, it doesn't show me any love towards any animal in that situation.

BTW, want to take exception with any other equipment we sell?regards,

Austin

Finally you admit to being a salesman
Lucky Star
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05-02-2011, 06:59 PM
Anyway (again):


So LuvMyDog (I will resist using your name extension although I think it is apt) - when you sell your prong/pinch collars, do you offer to go and train the new owner of the device? You know, to ensure that they know exactly when and how it should be used? Do you assess the dog before the sale to ensure it is appropriate for that dog and that situation?

Do you include, as part of the contract, that the device must only be used in conjunction with an expert?

Do you sell these devices to owners of puppies and small dogs?
Meg
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05-02-2011, 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog View Post
Wha....? Is this some kind of mental block. I'm almost sick of stating I'm not here to promote anything. .
...really, then I suggest you read back through your posts and look for the not so subtle hints, linking to a prong collar thread and edited post suggesting people Google a product sold on your site

I think you are having an attack of what is known as 'sour grapes' Austin.
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