I think CM could be called fashion, but not sure everything else can be put down to that...

Some very modern trainers have used negative punishment incredibly gently to train elephants - amazingly well - in I believe it was Nepal. I am strongly against its use in certain methods involving a type of collar, but not in such situations as the elephants. It's a shame ia way that we have to use scientific words to explain things, because how the elephants were trained was so gentle that it could not really be called "punishment" in the common sense of the word Previously the elephants were trained harshly using traditional methods and the ankh, which rips ears, as punishment. So their lives have been transformed. I could talk about it for ages! Just brilliant.

... I certainly agree with these thoughts Mick. I used to follow the what I call "John Fisher" pack theory, as above really, but later altered it when I realised it was fine when I didn't use it and broke the rules!
JF of course also altered his own views about it later...

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Great example. I think part of the problem is that people assume that negative reinforcement has to be painful, whereas it can be as simple as a harsh word, or deliberately ignoring. I have watched my pack train a very nippy sibe/mal cross puppy, which desperately wanted to play, but which had been taken away from its mum and siblings much too early and had never learned bite inhibition. Two of them simply crowded very close to it - flank to flank - and turned their heads away so that he couldn't move or reach to nip them. After a couple of hours of this treatment every time he tried to nip, he learned that the way to get them to play with him was not to nip them. Negative reinforcement, but painless and very effective!

I'm not sure what barking has to do with it?

That is not correct for the Siberian foxes that were bred for tameness, or not correct for dogs? How did dogs go from wolves - not tame, very big, uniform colour coat, rarely bark, to dogs? (if it was not by intentionally or unintentionally selective breeding for tameness - unintentionally being that it was only the tamer wolves that hung around humans)

I'm not a technical guy but if we're going to use the technical terms of operant conditioning we need to get them right.

Reinforcement and punishers are not interchangeable terms and the negative of one is not the posiive of the other.

Basically (I'm a basic guy) reinforcement is a consequence that promotes the behaviour and a punisher is a consequence that reduces it. Positive and negative in this context is better understood as plus and minus or adding and taking away.

So, in broad brush terms; reinforcement = a good thing happens or a bad thing stops, punishment = a bad thing happens or a good thing doesn't.


Positive reinforcement we add something good- a treat, praise, a game etc.

Negative reinforcement we stop doing something unpleasant. The example often used in dog training is the ear pinch. Pinch the ear between thumb and forefinger until the dog releases the toy. The reinforcement is not the unpleasantness of the pinch but the relief (or escape from) that unpleasantness when the dog give us the behaviour we want.

Positive punishers are just doing something unpleasant as a consequence for an action or behaviour. It might be the shake of a rattle can, the squirt of a water pistol or "traditional" punishers like the jerk of a choke chain or a whack from a rolled up newspaper etc.

Negative punishment is the removal of a pleasant consequence although in dog training it is almost always the failure to deliver of an expected pleasant consequence. Dog "bows" or "hovers" rather than going fully to the down so it does not get praise or a treat. Dog pulls on it's lead so we stop dead until we get a loose lead again. Basically it's about the dog not getting what it wants.

Modern approaches emphasise positive reinforcement and negative punishment. The role of positve punishers is hotly debated although most would agree that in some situations water pistols, rattle cans, bark collars etc have a place.

Yes, that's right Kevin Are you sure you're not a technical guy?

The elephants in Nepal were trained using negative reinforcement and of course, oodles of positive reinforcement too
The negative reinforcement amounted to a hand touch (pressure) and removal of hand ("relief" from pressure). I have some links to some great photos, I must try to find them and post the links on here.

Normally, I must say I am very much against its use. It's been explored lately by McLean in horse training (and I must stress his idea is to maximise owner/horse communication so that welfare for the animal is paramount, this is his ethos. He is aiming for the subtlest of aids). He has said, and is right, that technically one cannot train a horse without using neg. reinforcement, as even reducing pressure on the reins or I guess even getting off, could be seen as the release of pressure.

However, normally I am not a fan of its use, esp. in dog training. I can understand it a little more when training very large animals as long as it's done gently and with welfare strongly at the forefront of any technique.



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Clever dogs - teaching so gently, but ensuring they got the behaviour they wanted!

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You use a lead. So do we all at some time I would imagine.

We have Pippin and we can not use negative reinforcement on him at all---but he can't be taken out except in the field or down the bridleway.

How can you not be a fan of it---what would you do instead?

rune

I have no thoughts whatsoever about negative reinforcement with elephants but have been watching the result of a new arrival in my little mob.
The new dog (GSD x Doberman) is trying to initiate play with the previously new dog (Yorkie X), who is telling him off good and proper. This could be a pecking order in progress or it could simply be that the other dogs are more assertive and confident as they`ve been there longer.

Re negative reinforcement.. does batting at the dog with your paperback when he leaps on your lap and grabs your hand count?

I agree leads, harnesses etc are (technically) negative reinforcement but I'm referrring more to using it in specific ways for training, for example teaching walk to heel using a choke chain, or use of the shock collar in a specific manner, or ear pinch etc.

If you use clicker training, you don't aim to use it - you'd use positive reinforcement, negative punishment and extinction. Etc.

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