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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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11-01-2011, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs 
Getting lost in pages of the same old stuff
Adam, I would like to discuss this scientifically with you, taking away the emotion of 'shocks are bad' which is of course what i belieive
You say the dog is rewarding to the collar as Negative Reinforcment
- negative - taking away - reinforcment - something that makes the behaviour more likely to happen
The taking away the 'stim' is a sufficiently large reward that the dog enjoys the returning to you?
You have to 1st apply the 'stim' and the application of this stim IS positive punishment
What are you punishing at this point? I assume you apply the stim BEFORE the cue to return is given? So the dog can turn off the stim by obaying the cue?
Therefore the punishment is applied (from the dogs pont of view) randomly, it is not doing any behaviour that you are trying to stop, therefore that would be very confusing to the dog
Therefore as you are not supressing a behaviour with the punishment then it is not (scientifically speaking) punishment (as punishment is something that reduces a behaviour) therefore the 'stim' in the first place can only be classed as abuse
The degree of the 'reward' the dog would feel would be related to the degree of the 'discomfort' felt by the 'stim'
the bigger the discomfort the bigger the relief the bigger (and more motivating) the reward
If it didnt hurt it wouldnt work
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Location: Tayside
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 680
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11-01-2011, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
post 153 continued..
Michael there are photographs in another thread showing a dog with an e collar around its middle. When I enquired why this was done 'someone' indicated it was to teach the dog to sit.
Now it may be the case that a very low level of shock is all that is required to get the dog to sit because it is in a relaxed state with little external stimulation, but why would anyone want to use an e collar to teach a dog a simple thing like to sit. Sledgehammers and nuts come to mind.
Originally Posted by Minihaha
post 153 continued..
So lets look at training something more difficult , a recall with an e collar.
My current dog has a very high prey drive and loves to chase anything which moves. Even so she has a pretty good recall but I wouldn't trust her 100% so I use a little common sense and 'manage' her traits.
She is let off lead in the fields every day and I allow her to chase the crows and rabbits never calling her when I think there is a chance she won't obey. I never let her off where there is stock. The result is a happy little dog who does no harm to anyone but is allowed to use a behaviour for which her breed was originally bred.
Similarly, he gets off in safe areas, gets to have a little chase etc I treat him pretty much as you describe (had a bit of an "oh ******" incident before xmas, but now he's onlead between the car and front door too).
Originally Posted by Minihaha
post 153 continued..
I could of course put an e collar on her but I know that like any athlete under the influence of adrenaline fuelled excitement I would need to give her a pretty hefty shock to have any effect on her at all. So at the least the shock isn't strong enough so pointless and at the worst I cause my dog pain. Do I really want to cause my little dog pain in order to force her to comply with my wishes.
Originally Posted by Minihaha
post 153 continued..
What I have now is a happy little dog and I see the full measure of her personality which has never in any way been suppressed with force or fear.
This is just one of many of the reasons I would never use an e collar, I am sure those who advocate their use are aware of all other reasons which have been voiced not just on this forum but many others and resulted in the Welsh Assembly having the good sense to ban them.
You must be wondering why I'm not vehemently against e-collars after the above? I'll come back to it tomorrow - it's getting late, and a cuddle with my boy beckons.
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Location: South Wales, UK
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,574
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11-01-2011, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Btw can I ask all antis how much e collar training they have seen?
- I don't need to see someone get stabbed in the face to know it must hurt.
- I don't need to see someone get run-over by a car to know it must hurt.
- I don't need to see someone hammer a nail into their thumb to know it must hurt.
- I don't need to see a dog given an electric shock to know it must hurt.
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Location: U K
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 5,588
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11-01-2011, 04:58 AM
I find it very sad that a trainer/any trainer has to resort to the likes of e-collars, Prong or Pinch collars to acheive results from a dog
I wonder just how many of these "traumatised" dogs there are. Left in the hands of owners who forget their "training" & go overboard merrily zapping away. How many troubled dogs have ended up in rescue because of this type of training.
Last week i was contacted by someone who was concerned about a dog whose owners had bought an e-collar to "stop the dog barking in the garden. They were able to just 'buy' this device Online & start zapping away. It was known they wouldnt give this "instant cure" up easily - ironically the dog was able to work out when the collar was on he got hurt when barking in the garden, when it was off, he could bark - how is that training?????
The caller was advised/redirected to the site where they sold citeronella (sp) spray collars & they were so concerned they paid for & ordered the spray collar themselves. The dog owners had no interest other than a "quick" fix
Prong/Pinch collars are not much better.
There should be a total ban on all 3.
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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11-01-2011, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum
Perhaps we are being forewarned that a certain type of trainer may go underground if such became law, and continue to use them.
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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11-01-2011, 08:28 AM
Actually the first (sometimes only) behaviour I teach via the collar is move towards/follow me.
So the dog learns that being near the owner is comfortable, my definition of a dog feeling like it trusts someone (from working with fearful dogs) is that the dog feels ok about being near the person.
So straight off I generate trust
Adam
I am sorry to have to tell you this Adam... but it`s not trust.
A abused child clings to the abuser... terrified of more abuse.
An abused woman returns to the abuser... because she is powerless
An abused dog fawns on the abuser..
it`s called appeasement, Adam. Not trust.
You hurt dogs for a living.
Why try to justify it to us?
Just stop.
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Location: Nottingham, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,540
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11-01-2011, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Actually the first (sometimes only) behaviour I teach via the collar is move towards/follow me.
So the dog learns that being near the owner is comfortable, my definition of a dog feeling like it trusts someone (from working with fearful dogs) is that the dog feels ok about being near the person.
So straight off I generate trust
Adam
I am sorry to have to tell you this Adam... but it`s not trust.
A abused child clings to the abuser... terrified of more abuse.
An abused woman returns to the abuser... because she is powerless
An abused dog fawns on the abuser..
it`s called appeasement, Adam. Not trust.
You hurt dogs for a living.
Why try to justify it to us?
Just stop.
As with this:
I've seen enough videos, read enough facts about them to make an informed judgement. But...
I don't need to see someone get stabbed in the face to know it must hurt.
I don't need to see someone get run-over by a car to know it must hurt.
I don't need to see someone hammer a nail into their thumb to know it must hurt.
I don't need to see a dog given an electric shock to know it must hurt.
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Location: dullsville
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,241
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11-01-2011, 10:20 AM
dont do it
you are talking to yourselves
its a new year, dont get bogged down in the same old rut.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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11-01-2011, 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker
hello my friends
dont do it
you are talking to yourselves
its a new year, dont get bogged down in the same old rut.
it may be a new year but sadly some people have bought there old ways into the new year with them and some of us are not prepared to sit back and remain silent even if it means talking to ourselves. You for one are clearly listening or you wouldn't be posting in the thread 