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18-04-2009, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by magpye 
I think most of us here are basically trying to say the same thing (great thread idea pidge really opened some good discussion).
Reading through all the posts, it seems to me we're all basically saying 'sort of... ish' but can't get the terminology quite right. .....
Maybe what we need here is a new word. A word that means leader and Mummy and mentor and friend and Boss...?
There is a website and info somewhere about using the term "guardian" which I quite like. I will see if I can find a reference to it. I think you make a good point
I have used several of those terms over the years and dont really feel that comfortable with any ...
Wys
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18-04-2009, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Lottie : I feel that if you reprimand (gently of course) Takara when she barks at roughly behaving children, you are doing exactly the right thing ! You are telling her, look you silly sausage, there is nothing to be scared of ! they are only stupid children who know no better, here, look at me, I'm not scared, so you shouldn't be. See? By pandering to her fear, you are reinforcing it. By not telling her off, you are saying there, there, Takara, those nasty noisy children, of course you are scared, so am I, you go ahead and bark at them as much as you want ! She is then going to learn that it is OK to bark at children, or whatever is frightening her. Much better is to teach her, by your own positive body language and calm assertiveness, that there is nothing to be frightened of.
Yes, my boy Hal was scared of fireworks. So what did I do? I made him face up to fireworks ... not outside, I felt that would be too cruel. I took him into the conservatory and sat with him in there watching the fireworks through the glass. Every time a firework went off, I gave a shout of delight ! O look Hal look, aren't they pretty ! Doing everything I could through my positive body language to show him that fireworks were fun. When a particularly loud one went off, I would excite him by saying Hal, Hal, fetch the firework, in the same voice I would use to chase next door's cat out of my garden. He got the picture. I then took him outside and we sat on the patio with all the bangs and whistles. This was a bit more scarey for him, but by the end of the firework display, he was lying down by my side calmly.
Hope this helps.
PLEASE do not tell me what to do with my dog!
I know how to deal with her issues and didn't ask for any help. I am always being given other people's opinions on how I should train my dog despite not asking for them.
I do not comfort Takara, I do not ignore her doing it. I work on it at the time. She doesn't 'get away' with it... she just isn't punished for it either.
As soon as ever I see children I start the whole 'oh wow! look there's children! Oh isn't that great! Here's a treat!' she's getting much better and when children approach calmly I ask them to feed her a treat and ask them not to fuss her unless she's sat watching me and not facing them because that is how it is best for her. I don't let them fuss her if I think she's not in the mood for it but they don't seem to mind if they get to feed her a tit bit.
When children run screaming at her there is nothing I can do to stop them and that's when she barks at them.
My point is I will not reprimand my dog for communicating. It is SO very unfair to expect a dog to be ok with everything all the time, they are living breathing creatures with their own emotions and feelings. To expect a dog to be ok with everything all the time is to deny it it's natural reactions and instincts.
I do not pander to her - some people think I'm too soft because of my lack of correction but others believe I'm too harsh because I don't let anything go unnoticed.
If she barked at a child that was a reasonable distance away I would (and have) tell her in no uncertain terms to 'leave!' but I do not punish her - there must be a reason for it in her mind.
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Lottie you said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it you have never actually been put into this situation with Tai as you keep saying 'if he ever did'. You are lucky that you have not had to deal with it but as someone who has I can tell you it's not always as straight cut as you may think!
Yup, you are right, Tai isn't scared of anything, he came to us as a rescue with no issues, just a lot of bad manners, which I sorted out within days. However, you have got me thinking, because there is one thing he does have, and that is huge separation anxiety. Now, this is something where I don't believe "going through the paces" will help. Through no fault of his previous owner's really, Tai had to be left Home Along for many many hours sometimes, his owner worked in the pub trade. I do not believe we are ever going to get him over this, and I will be quite honest with you, I don't want to try. We find it no problem that he has to come everywhere with us, the sacrifice of never being able to go into a restaurant for dinner, or the cinema, or abroad, is a sacrifice worth making. We left him alone for 2 hours whilst we went to a parish council meeting, and he ripped through a mahogany front door in his attempts to get to us. This deep rooted phobia is perfectly natural, just as it was my previous dog Hal, who was the same type - mal x husky - they have a very strong pack instinct and just cannot be left alone, unless you have more than one, and even that can be tricky. I am not sure we would ever be able to undo the pain and suffering of the last 6 years, so I am not going to even try. As far as we are concerned, it is not a problem, just part of loving Tai ! And Hal before him.
Having told you that, you might call me a hypocrite !!
The reason? What IF something completely beyond my control happened and he couldn't stay with me? What if something terrible happened and he had to be left alone?
This is probably because I know I am sick. I have always spent time getting my dogs used to spending time alone (even though they come to work with me and go everywhere possible with me), I've got them used to sleeping downstairs and also with the occasional night in my room so that they are also used to being crated in a bedroom with me in case this was needed one day.
I have tried to get them used to being left longer than I would happily leave them and I have always tried to ensure their behaviour is that of a dog that people would love to rehome in case anything ever happened to me. (Yes Takara has developped issues but these were beyond my control - again something I don't want to go into and I am trying to put them right) I have no intention whatsoever of rehoming either of them but what if??
So yes, my personal choice would be to work on it but I'm not about to lecture you as to whether you should work on Tai's SA and how you should do that. He's your dog, your choice. Nothing to do with me.
So please refrain from telling me what I should be doing with my dog... it's a waste of your time and mine because I've stopped taking advice when it hasn't been asked for because I got so much of it that I made a mess of things trying to do what everybody told me to do.
I now go with what I know and if I'm unsure I ask someone who's advice I trust.
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18-04-2009, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
at a child. The worst any dog ever did was Hal just before he died. It was a very hot summer's day, and a 14 year old teenager was stroking his tummy outside the pub when she leaned very hard on his stomach. He was suffering from kidney stones at the time, and this probably hurt him, and he just growled, nothing more, just a warning growl. I was angry with him and told him off, and he instantly put out his tongue, a sign of supplication, and the young girl apologised for hurting him and started to stroke his ears. He licked her hand, and all was well.
, as I'd be very cross with the person who caused my dog to be in such pain that she growled, or perhaps cross with myself depending on the situation. In my book if you tell a dog off for growling, also, they may stop growling and bite instead. I have known this happen at a dog training school with a rescue gsd sadly
See, if that happened again, (supposing) he may remember that growling got him a telling off, and so avoid doing it until it was too late, and he went right up the ladder of aggression straight into a bite.
Sorry I seem to be replying to your posts a fair bit, but I find them interesting to kind of compare views with
Wys
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18-04-2009, 03:49 PM
When you see wolves in the wild it is clear there is a pack structure..and dogs living in a similar structure have their pack work along similar lines..(obviously without the need for the hunt etc)..
) and I agree you have the right to believe what you do.However, don't you want to find out more about it?
I would if I used the term "alpha" and someone said to me "well, actually .... " I'd want to explore why I had used the term in the first place and what I understood about it, and what if anything had changed...(ie was it from books, if so where did those authors get their info from, etc etc).Dogs who live in the wild tend to not live in packs but more in family groups. That's not my opinion by the way, it's Coppinger's and others who have studied them
Wys
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18-04-2009, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I actually prefer the word "alpha" Krusewalker, one, it is more economical (one word instead of many) and two, I believe that we, as humans, live in a pack society very similar to a wolf pack. This is why I believe that we have such an amazingly symbiotic relationship with our dogs - we live by the same rules. Ipso facto, humans must be "alphas" to their dogs.
The latter point i wondered was the case.
And this is why I do take issue wit the use of this word, as people aren't simply using it as an interchangeable word (in the thesaurus sense) with the words 'leader' or boss', they are really using it for its behaviour theory associations.
And why i take issue? Because in the above usage, the term alpha was just some random word (just like Jan Fennell's amichien bonding term) devised by a couple of guys about 100 hundred years ago based upon some flawed studies of an artificial captive wolf pack which they then correlated to dogs as dogs evolve from wolves.
Whereas, the world's leading (free pack) wolf biologist will tell you that this word is an empty phrase that doesnt even impart meaning to wolves, so therefore, by the same linkage logic, definitely does not impart any meaning to groups of dog and humans living together, anymore than it would groups of cats and humans living together.
I agree that humans live in some form of pack society, but the word alpha has no relevance for the same reasons.
Whether it be wolves, dog, humans living in whatever arrangement, just say leader, if that is your preferred perspective on things.
Using alpha instead is just a pretension to an artificial theory.
that wasnt written as an attack on any individuals on this thread
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18-04-2009, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker
Using alpha instead is just a pretension to an artificial theory.
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18-04-2009, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
Hi Krusewalker - I see the point you are trying to make but I think your comment above only applies if people who use the word "alpha" have heard of, or buy into, the theory you refer to. It would appear from this thread that people interpret the word in a number of ways.
Agreed
But that was what was i was saying
For example, Gnasher said he/she used the word just to mean leader or boss, as that is how she regards the relationship with the dogs.
So, i replied with the question that if you speak the language of english, and you just mean 'leader' or 'boss', then why you would be using an odd foreign phrase (im not even sure this is the word greeks use for boss or leader?).
For example, if you were describing yourself as your dog's trainer, would you use a greek word?
Gnasher gave 2 replies:
1) apha is a more economical word than boss or leader, which isnt actually the case.
2) she used it as she was inspired by the use of the word as used by one theory of wolf pack behaviour, then cross-referancing it to pack theory of wolves and humans.
Point 2) thus reveals that Gnasher isnt merely using the word as you would a thesaurus, but due to its canine behaviour theory background.
I would argue that the others who arent referancing the theory as per gnasher, but just as an exchange word, are also, by the historical association of the word, also indirectly referancing its 'behaviour theory applications'.
This is because its to do with one of those 'scientific facts of life' that has only become so due to being repeated oft throughout the generations.
Thus used in the same way people say you must drink 4 of water per day, Scottish people are Celts, etc ,etc.
A 'given truth that became so thru repetition, not thru scientific testing.
Its the age old story of my mother's cooked ham.
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Location: Nr Edinburgh
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18-04-2009, 07:30 PM
Nothing at all to do with any theory
The head animal in a pack, and by extension, an unofficial leader. Often used sarcastically of someone who wants to lead a group.
George wants to be alpha, but no one takes him seriously.
The first letter of the greek alphabet, also means The begining or creation"
I am the alpha and Omega, the begining and the end, the first and the last
the first; beginning.
–adjective 8. a. (esp. of animals) having the highest rank of its sex in a dominance hierarchy: the alpha female.
b. being the most prominent, talented, or aggressive person in a group: the alpha male of investment bankers.
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18-04-2009, 07:46 PM
Ollie can be challenging but when it comes to it he knows who to listen too and there has been no alpha male or in my case female practised ever again in this house.
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