I doubt that, if it was you'd take a very different stance and be more pleasant to people

Are you saying you never ever ever, EVER, recommend collars used on highest levels which are painful? Of course you do.

What if a dog E collar trained decided to not recall? or it broke a stay? or refused to leave? Would you not recommend a high level of E collar as a reminder to the dog?

Level 100 does have meaning - the beginning level will be 0 or 1, therefore 100 is at the opposite end of that. Ie extremely painful.

I like dogs. I think they're worth the trouble to keep them alive.


so your answer is to control them via fear or pain.
i think you will find most people on this site are anti e collars, i know i don't speak for every one i'm speaking for myself.

all i was trying to point out is no matter what you put some if not all of us have our own point of view on the e collar which regardless of what you say will never change.
it doesn't matter to me how many pages this carrys on for i would never use an e collar on any of my dogs present or future.
personnelly i think in some situtations the dog would be better of humanly put to sleep then spend most of its life living in fear of a collar being triggered. all you would end up with is a broken dog with more problems than it already had to start with.
thats no life for any animal, i wouldn't want my dogs to fear me to make them do as they are told.

Oh wonderful - another e-collar thread by Clot and Uncle Lewd. Whatever happened to the original poster I wonder -NOT!

Do we really have to re-visit this again? I think certain people are banking on the rest of us becoming so sick of the subject we just don't bother posting anymore so inevitably only one view gets an airing ...

Now Lou, you know better than that!! You cannot say what you would advise to help a dog that is aggressive until you have

a met the dog
b met the owner

As an experienced dog trainer, you are no doubt aware that when dealing with aggression it is unwise to take as read owner accounts because owners are not experts in body language or on canine behaviour. To advise based on owner generated accounts as to what is going on with their dog is dangerous as, if they have misread what's actually going on, any advice could make the situation much worse.

One thing I will say, I wouldn't tether any dog and let them get on with their practicing of the behaviour and I wouldn't use any sound aversives. What would I use? After meeting the dog and owner and assessing what's going on, then and only then would I be able to tell you

You know what? I'm really sick to death of flaming control freaks where dogs are concerned - and that goes for 'expert behaviourists' as well as proponents of these horrible implements of torture ...

Why the hell do we have dogs at all if we are not prepared to allow them to be dogs????? For instance, we take a stubborn, mischievous, bolshy breed (and yes, I count my dog in that, most definitely) and get them because of their wonderful independent nature, yet get hacked off with this behaviour (going after prey, giving backchat, fighting other dogs, chasing little old ladies ... whatever) and try to subdue them. Why not just get a hamster instead? Or an electric 'dog'? Or better still accept the dog for the wonderful individual that he is and work with him?

well put lucky.
nothing like a dog being a dog all the good and bad or hard bits that go along with it.
its like saying a pup isn't allowed to have accidents we all know its part and parcel of owning a pup.
its called house training the pup in a postive way to teach it where to go not press a button and zap the poor thing.

Not for anything that's being discussed here. This forum doesn't allow discussions about Ecollars except for last ditch attempts to save a dog's life when other methods have failed. That's ALL I'm talking about.

I use the Ecollar at the level where the dog first perceives the stim. But that's not a constant. Where he first perceives it changes as his distraction level changes.

By way of analogy, imagine that you're in the living room watching the final round of the World Cup and your team is playing. Normally when you're at rest and nothing is going on your wife gets your attention with a "level 2" voice. But now, that the game is going on, you don't hear that level 2 any more. She calls you to dinner but because you're not at rest, you've paying close attention to the game, you don't hear her. So she raises her voice to a level 3 and then a level 4. You still don't hear her because the game is VERY exciting. She'll keep raising the level of her voice until you do perceive it. You simply didn't perceive her voice at the lower levels; 2, 3, or 4 because you were distracted.

When an Ecollar trained dog ignores the recall because he's interested in something, a squirrel perhaps, the same thing is done. Let's say that this dog works on a level 2. The first time the owner calls and is ignored he raises the level to a 3. If that doesn't work, he goes to a 4. And so on until he sees the same sort of sign as when a dog first perceives the stim, an ear flick, a flea scratch, a change in how he's standing. He now knows that he's gotten the dog's attention. As this occurs he's repeating the recall command. If the dog still doesn't comply he'll go to a 5. Virtually every dog at that point is feeling the discomfort and wants it to stop. Luckily he's been trained and knows how to make it stop. He simply turns away from the squirrel and heads back towards the owner at which point the owner lifts his finger off the button.

Yes, the level of stim has risen, but it's still at the level where, in his distracted state, he first perceives it.


Is a 100 higher than a 5? Is it higher than a 127? See, no meaning.

I know someone who can't feel a 100. To her it's not only NOT "extremely painful" as you say, she can't feel it at all. At what level an Ecollar is first perceived is purely subjective. It can't be predicted beforehand. Tough dogs sometimes feel it at very low levels. Two police dogs I worked recently were very low, an 8 and a 12. A Yorkie didn't feel a 40 on the same Ecollar.

The numbers by themselves mean nothing and they can't be compared from one brand of Ecollar to another. Relative to 0 - 100 may be high, unless that dog or that person can't tell the difference. Generally it's safe to say that if a dog first feels the stim at 20, that 100 will be extremely painful, but it's easy to NOT turn the dial up.

Leo nowhere have I said anything about fear or pain except to deny that either happens. You folks who have never seen low level stim keep saying it and I keep saying that it doesn't happen with low level stim. You're free not to believe it but that doesn't change it.

If I jerk out your tooth with a pair of pliers and that causes a high level of pain, you'll probably fear me next time I approach with the pliers. (Or you might kick my Bu!!). But if instead of pulling your tooth, I gently touch your shoulder, you won't.

I don't doubt either of those facts. Can you tell me why you are anti-Ecollar? What if you're wrong about the "fear and pain?" What if it's just a gentle touch on your shoulder? Which is, what I'm saying.

That would make sense if you had some experience of using low level stim. Even if you'd just seen someone else doing it. If you were to watch me work a dog you couldn't even tell when I was pressing the button. The "fear and pain" that you imagine simply doesn't exist. But just hearing someone describe what I believe to be misuse, it doesn't make sense to me that you'd extend that to what I do. Ms. Halberstrom had similar feelings until she "reached the end of her tether." Only then did she turn to the Ecollar as a last resort. That attitude is fine by me. The tool was responsible for saving her dog's life. Without it she'd have lost her dog.

I would hope that if you got a dog that didn't respond to your methods that, instead of putting it to sleep, you'd give it a try.

What if everything you thought you knew about "living in fear of a collar being triggered" was wrong? Why is it that you folks are so invested in this statement? Leo, if that's what life with an Ecollar was like, I'd agree. But I know that it's not.

Perhaps you folks won't believe this until you can see some of it. I have some video of me working a dog on an Ecollar. I'll see about putting it up somewhere that you can see.

Oh wonderful - another post from someone who claims to be kind to animals but is rude and insulting to humans.

Her contact information is available if you doubt that she exists or that her tale isn't true.

As always you're not required to read or respond. But I'd ask that if you do, please post something pertinent; something that actually has to do with the topic, instead of rudeness, name calling, or personal attacks

If people stop responding. So will I. There are nearly 150 posts on this thread, most of them are anti-Ecollar. Both views are well represented.

Earlier I wrote: Certainly there are some general things that can be done without having to see the dog.

Again, I'm sure that there are some similar specific things that are done in almost every case. It's not going to affect Ms. Halberstrom, she's already found her release.

That's exactly what was done by a trainer who called himself "positive" and he DID meet the dog and the owner!

I'm just looking for what Patch would do. He (she?) claims to have vast experience. Certainly there's something that can be suggested.