Insomnia

My preference would be to e collar train the dog to remove its fear response to the men/men with sticks.
Mainly because while you have progressed I guess its taken a while and the dog is still iffy with certain triggers.
No offence to you but I don't consider it fair to the dog to be long term fearful (remember you cannot stop it seeing men with sticks on walks) if I can stop that fear quicker.

In most cases the most practical thing to do is the incompatible/nlp route. In other words instead of allowing the dog to flight/fight behaviour (even just a startle response) at triggers get the dog to heel calmly past, or sit calmly while they walk past (stand or down in this case).

You can also deliberatly reprogram the dog to men/with sticks using the following method.

Owner puts e collar and flexi on the dog. We go into garden/quite road and I (holding stick) take the lead.
The dog will ove to the end of the elad and stay there! At first.
I will then find the dogs working level on the collar and stim/guide the dog (with the elad) a step or two towards me! When it moves in I stop the stim!
Repeat this again and again gradually raising the criteria until the dog is up with me (and the stick), this usually takes 15 to 30 minutes. The dog will thn be happy with me + stick.
Get the dog to do this with a few more men and sticks and the dogs view point will rapidly change!

Of course the 2nd option requires stooge people (and sticks lol).

Scotty, btw I understand your posts quite well.

Yes I do get people coming to me who are anti who then change their minds, either through my explanations or through their observations of my dogs!
An example, I had a owner (who was anti) with a recall problem, I told them on the phone I was e collar trainer and thought it was best for their dog. I then offered to demo my dogs to see what they thought. They were impressed and hired me.
They now have two e collar trained dogs!

Other points, yes I do train without, but not often anymore! Some people can't afford one for example, then I will help as much as I can anyway (occasionally I find a 2nd one for these people or just loan them one for the duration).

On occasion however I will say no to a case if they refuse a collar, why because I know it will be a waste of time (and their money) and don't wish to do so.
More often than not these people ask for help again a few months/weeks later and then use an e collar.

Hope that answers it.

Any more questions, keep em coming.

Adam

Some of us - dont agree with cruel 'training' methods - .. shame the same cant be said for all Dogsey members - its nothing more than dog abuse, which is worse than all what you stated above. Most dog lovers find it hard to turn a blind eye and accept any dog lover would use such barbaric equipment on defenceless dogs.

Adam, I have a few questions.

Has anyone, or anything you've read in any of the shock collar threads (including the one that had the video that demonstrates the association of electric shocks and brain damage) - changed your mind yet? Not even a little bit?

How about the general consensus that training with pain is a dark relic of our past and no longer socially acceptable? (At least in this country.) Does that tell you anything?

Finally, if not, do you concede defeat that you, as a trainer, are unable to train dogs without using out-dated, inhumane methods - considering that many people have shown/demonstrated methods that get the job done (within reason - ie _not_ trying to change intrinsic behaviour built into certain breeds) but without pain or suffering?

All this answers to me is that you are completely delusional
If you have a dog that is completely shut down through fear (as was my rescue BC, having been beaten with a crook) there is no way that shocking it would make it less fearful. All you will succeed in doing is making it feel right in its assumption that all humans inflict pain in one way or another
The positive method is to start with a stick on the ground, and build up the dogs confidence around it, using treats or a toy that it likes, you gradually build up to touching the stick, then picking it up, and eventually holding it; all the time clicking and treating, you can recruit stooge people too to give tretas whist holding/touching the stick, thus giving the dog a rewrding experience and TRUST.
I would like to know how many rescues have employed your "services" to help with severely screwed up dogs.......i would like to hazard a guess at none

Jann x

by the original fear being less than the greater fear of being shocked. Your post screams this out.

To make a comparison:

The fear of spiders is a common one. Someone with a genuine fear of spider who perhaps screams when one comes within a certain distance will certainly stop screaming at the sight of one if every time they do they get a painful shock. However, their fear of spiders remains, they just mask it.

Your 'solution' may make things easier for the owner, but the poor dog has now had its fears increased.

IT IS A CRUEL WAY TO TRAIN and takes no account of the dog, only the owner's comfort and the inflated ego of the trainer if they truly believe that they have overcome the original problem

A very apt comparison. As someone with arachnophobia I can tell you with 100% certainty that a painful shock would either stop me from reacting but not stop the fear or make me even MORE afraid of them since they're now associated with pain as well.

I'm not even sure how someone could come up with that sort of twisted logic.

Oh yeah, as someone with arachnophobia would have to say that if I got shocked everytime I jumped back from contact with a spider I would have to say that I would hate them more lol. Both the spider itself & the situation in which I was shocked.

On the flipside... If I received a hug, or a chocolate bar every time I saw a spider I just might learn to fear/hate them a little less.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate what you're saying, but as you can imagine after his treatment with sticks/men, the last thing I could do to him is force him to be with one and let them shock him until he goes closer, he's a sensitive dog. I had hoped you were going to answer and explain about some positive method you would have used to build his trust in you and build up to the stick...Thank you any way for your time in explaining.

I think that would be more the method I'd use. To be honest, we've already made progress by me making nothing of him seeing someone with a stick, to the point where now Axel will 'recover' quickly if the person simply puts the stick next to their leg or slightly behind rather than it out in front. I did it using positive methods. His fear isn't what it once was and he still trusts me. I was mainly asking hypothetically in terms of when his fear was immense and seeing how it would theoretically help - I am saddened by the answer.

A fabulous comparison. I would also not learn to be comfortable around spiders by being shocked until I touched one...I may touch one to avoid shock but I wouldn't be happy about it.

I agree.

I like the sound of the flipside. Plus slowly building things up.

Exactly. To continue with the spider comparison, if you get someone going closer and closer to the spider through pain, without dealing with the fear, what happens if the spider suddenly runs towards them? Lots of people will react by lashing out - kicking at the spider, for example, because you've removed the "flight" and only given the "fight" option. You're not teaching them to not fear spiders, you're teaching them that it is less painful to approach the spider than to run away, that's all.
Keep shocking a dog towards something it fears without dealing with that fear and what happens if the thing they fear acts differently? They can no longer run off so will they fight back? You're creating a ticking time bomb, you're not creating a dog that's happy and safe around men with sticks, but one that simply fears running away from them (because it causes pain) so is forced to approach them, and may react by biting this scary man. You've created a dog that will now approach something it's uncomfortable with and this is far more dangerous IMO - people aren't predictable and what if the dog approaches a man with a stick who does not see the dog and suddenly lurches towards it? Or a man with a stick who is afraid of dogs himself and panics when the dog is nearby and acts "oddly" - the dog itself may panic, and all of a sudden all those bottled up fears come out in one moment, which could prove very dangerous.

We are all entitled to our opinions, true enough, and more than reasonable if you disagree with something, then you must of course say so. But how does banning the member solve anything? Surely if you are so sure that you are right, and they are wrong, then try and educate that person into changing his ways.