If the breeder didnt test off there own back then they clearly see no wrong in not testing therefore a breeder taking you up on the offer of giving them money to health tests would show me just what sort of breeder they were....

Exactly paying more to promote your dogs and lines!

Then the person is going to be paying more anyway....(health tests, etc)

They are not paying more for the pup, because the option would be there for them IF they choose to take it - if they chose not to thats up to them....as it would be to the 'pet' people (horrid saying).

You are not going to know with 8 week old pups for certain of their potential, so you cannot give that surety to potential owners.

Yeah, so not only do they not get some of there money back because they are not neautering, they also have to adhear to a contract sent with there show/breeding dog and pay out for health testing and the like before endorsments are lifted.. seems fair doesnt it, to pay so much more to promote breeders dogs/lines...
If you want to reward owners for being responsible and neautering then what is in place for them that health tests there dogs before you lift endorsments, do they get anything other than the endorsment lifting?

(Just trying to understand here - as seems to me this reward thingy, is just in place for pet people)!?

Yes - they get the chance to use the lines that someone else has worked flipping hard to develop.
I honestly think that breeding from dogs ought to be something that is undertaken very seriously and therefore have no issue with the cost etc of health tests.....the sad fact is that some people do not bother, they possibly look at breeding as a way of 'getting back' some of the money they have paid out.

I traveled 1/2 way across the country to have it confirmed that Siren was not deaf.....
Our nearest BVA registered Vet is about 80 miles away...and then hip scoring.

Siren was not endorsed - but I have consulted with her breeder every step of the way.

You are right they get the chance to use lines others may have worked hard and spent alot of time/money to get where they are.. But thats not the point, the breeder should also be honoured that people want to carry on with there lines.

Of course breeding should be taken seriously, and money should never ever be an issue when doing testing and what not. I just find it a little un-fair that people are suggesting that neautering should be rewarded yet these responsible owners that buy with the aim to breed, show or work that decide not to neauter but still be responsible owners get nothing back.

I have no problem neautering my pets, Zani is done, Karma is due to have health tests done, so I have not decided about her yet, and Mace will be done when I feel he is older enough and mature enough - he wont be shown like I had thought about, as I will not promote dogs from breeders with such breeding ethics. But hey ho.

Its good you had her tested for deafness not even considering how far you travelled and that you consult her breeder about your plans - its how it should be.

I am shocked to the core at that statement considering YOUR profile says you have never bred, "but plan to breed", irrespective of what it was in response to.

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I would try to open someone's eyes to the risks of breeding their bitch, they would need to be clear the dog has an infallible temperament with people and dogs - if they did and they were still adamant,

If they had a KC registered pedigree dog (or one of the small handful of longstanding known breeds or import breeds), I would firstly encourage them to try (ideally) showing / working or some other focussed skill area with their dog.

I would support them through health tests and finding the most appropriate stud dog, I would assess the dog for it's weaknesses, and find one that complemented them - WHY?

Because, if they are adamant they are going to breed, then I would rather they did it properly than risk them turning into another BYB.

I would never support anyone producing deliberate cross breeds other than giving them the required health information and making it clear that producing any sort of 'type' is pretty much impossible.

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For every new RESPONSIBLE breeder that can be created - it's a few purchases less for the PF and BYB.

In many breeds, demand for responsibly bred pedigree pups clearly isn't being met, because if it was, no PF bred dogs would be sold, and lo and behold, pressures on rescue would start to ease.

That isn't a license to breed - there is massive research required before even considering it - you need to know the pedigrees and lines inside out and what might be lingering in the background.

Interestingly, every person I've supported to date has actually stopped before even to the health testing stage - the recognition of

• the amount of initial investment required,
• the worry,
• the risk of losing their beloved girl,
• 9 weeks or so without sleep,
• chapped hands,
• spending a fortune on air fresheners to get rid of the pooey / pee smell,
• 5/6 times a day feeding rituals,
• unable to virtually leave the house unless you have cover

All the above are pretty good deterrents in their own right - and so far, all said dogs have subsequently been neutered rather than bred from.

You stand and tell someone they are not going to breed their dog, and it's almost like a red rag to a bull - you are 13years old again, and an adult is telling you what you can and can't do.


I strongly disagree with the perception that health and temperament are more important than improving the overrall conformation of the dog if you are breeding for the pet market - all three are important in that order - and if you are going to breed, you should be looking to improve your breeding lines (this is one reason where cross breeds fall down - their health tests become greater in number and therefore more expensive - plus how can you breed when you have nothing to breed to

It's where you are going which is important and could have a long term impact on your breed, particularly in small gene pools.

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I've no doubt I will get backlash from the 'usual people' - but ultimately to have the hypocrisy to say "I don't want to make it easier for people to breed" - but it's OK for me to do it

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As an adjunct - the number of times I see statements such as "leave breeding to the experts" - if we don't tap into the wealth of knowledge around NOW - we are going to lose it - and then what happens?

I was lucky....and to a certain extent I got off a bit lightly as there were a couple for DNA tests that I did not get done - both parents and a couple of grandparents) were genetically clear. So - in a way - I gained from Sirens breeder having paid out for the tests and I did not have to.

Same as with anything else, if they want to breed, they do, charge a few quid less, sell them unregistered.

Why is it hypocrisy- have you ANY idea about what I have been through with my bitch in order to breed from her???
I would not want it to be easier fro anyone BECAUSE of what can go wrong - people should think about it seriously and be 100% committed....and then only then....go into breeding.

If you were to make it 'eaiser'...how many more would you open the door to who feel that they can make more money as, not only can they charge for pups, they can still charge the same and have not paid out for the health tests.