Hi Guys, can I also just post a reminder to ask that we keep the posts on topic and non personal. Thanks!

This is how I feel about it, I have tried to ask questions in order to see it from your side but at the end of the day this is how I feel.

I have one dog who lights up when you give him a command because he has never been hurt so for him training means fun and one dog who, used to, completely shut down when asked to do something because for him humans telling him things resulted in a beating.

I talk about how a Malcolm is but by far the saddest sight I have cared for was my Bob. He was the best dog, great off lead, spot on recall, beautiful off lead heel. Loyal as anything. I tried to actively teach him things like down and some agility work but he'd been beaten so badly in his life all he was capable of doing was sitting and raising his paw while looking absolutely terrified. The look of relief when you stopped trying to ask things of him was astonishing.

For me the use of an e-collar is just as bad as the horrible people that beat my boys. The mental scaring followed Bob around right to the end of his life but at least he could trust me, I'm thankful he found that.

Glad you've put this on, Azz, as it does stifle discussion.

Like it or not, these things exist and burying heads in the sand doesn't alter that.

My own opinion is that a forum either bans its discussion, or allows discussion without ridicule and personal attack.

I'd go with the latter, but, again, that's just my opinion

The reasons have been explained to you Firstlight, so they are not obscure.

Wys

I would agree with this, there is no way that ecollar training is ever a choice and I don't understand how anyone can say so, because clearly if the dog does not obey they get shocked more until they do as required.

It is absolutely a punishment, in OC terms PP or PP/-R depending on how it is used.

Wys

I fervently hope the rest of the UK and the world does catch up...

Wys

Wholeheartedly agree!

There is 'choice' involved in on the part of the trainer who chooses whether or not to press the button.

The dog can choose whether to endure the pain or switch it off. To be honest, I don't see that as conscious thought on the part of the dog, rather a compulsion.

All animals will avoid pain if at all possible and a few repetitions of receiving it would no doubt lead to an association of when it will likely be administered. However, the dog won't make the association of comply with 'all' commands or receive pain, but will have to have the association made on each command the trainer wants associated with it.

Firstlight, which commands do you use the shock collar for? I'm guessing it's not all of them but the ones you feel are important for your sport

I have never witnessed a shock collar being used, nor would I like to. The reasons have all been explained very clearly on this thread already.
What I find really sad is if this method is being used to win or do well at a sport. Surely the reason to compete with a dog is for both to have fun and enjoy it. A valuable asset is a sense of humour when the dog goes wrong. IMO if a dog gets it wrong in competition, it's usually the handler's fault.

Exactly Malka, I had EMGs done on both hands & on elbow my eyes were streaming afterwards & the pain was awful & yes I did know the pain was coming, but not how much.

You got it Brierley, now fess up, how did you know why the dogs reacted as they did?

Both of your examples illustrate the use of shock by ignorant owners as punishment, i.e., the owners meant to stop a behavior; as explained in my previous posts, no one, including me, uses the collar this way if they know what they are doing. These examples illustrate why things like bark collars and electronic fences a really bad idea. I have seen exactly the responses you describe from the use of both bark and fence collars, which are not trainers. I have worked with dogs which had severe problems resulting from the use of the fence, and neither owner had a clue as to why their dogs had a problem. One of them gave me her interpretation of her dog's behavior that was so far off base that I would have laughed if the situation hadn't been so damn tragic.


I also had a fence retailer call and threaten me with a lawsuit, not because I was strongly recommending people not use them, but because I was using the retailer's
trade name (which everyone and his second cousin did, by the way).[/B] I had had a really "interesting" conversation with one of their sales reps a few years prior when they were offering a referral fee to pros who sent buyers to them, and if I hadn't been anti-fence before that, I sure would have been afterwards. These people knew nothing about training, and could have cared less about the damage they were doing; it was all about the money.

Right on about many of the people who use collars, as I posted previously. People don't want to be bothered with doing things the right way, too slow and time-consuming; much easier to just push the magic button, and consequences be damned.

Yes, I have seen plenty of responses to actions such as raised arms, etc., and reactions to same that were much more severe. I have already given my opinion of CM. There seems to be a cult mentality that develops around folks like and Parelli; strange, isn't it? Maybe we detractors are just jealous, if only we were that good at self-promotion we could get rich too!

Re: the use of aversives, here is my take on it: I see a lot of damage done by people who are ignorant of dog behavior, and who insist on treating dogs like little hairy people (and are invariably disappointed when the dogs fail to act like little hairy people!). One of the biggest misconceptions folks have is that their dogs "love" them, and if they just love the dog back all will be well. Dogs don't "love", they bond and respect.

I wonder how many of you who are anti-aversive have had the opportunity to observe, daily, a litter of pups from birth on. IME, most pups receive aversives as they are trained by the adults within the litter. This training is nature's way of ensuring harmony and stability within the pack, and the pup which cannot learn to live within the rules will not survive within the unit, because it is a disruptive force. I have always allowed my pups to interact with my males, all of which have been excellent trainers. I once had a 3 month old make the egregious error of biting my 110lb. male in the scrotum; his response was instant and awe-inspiring, and you would have sworn the pup was being gutted given all the roaring and screaming and thrashing around. I had a friend here who was on the verge of a nervous breakdown when she saw this, so I intervened before she stroked out. Thunder had the pup pinned on her back by her neck and was on top of her, roaring to beat the band I walked over and put my hand on his back and said very calmly and quietly, "Thunder, leave it", and he turned turned the aggression display off like a faucet; he looked up at me with a very pleasant expression ("Oh, hi Mom"), I said "C'mon, lets go" and he happily followed me into the house.

Now, this particular pup had been pushing the envelope with the male for two weeks (a natural part of development), and the male had warned her several times to knock it off. She continued to escalate her rudeness to the level that provoked the male's final response; I watched the process, and was not at all surprised/dismayed at it's conclusion. Was that an appropriate response on the male's part? It certainly was from his viewpoint; the message he conveyed was, "Don't you ever even think about putting your teeth on me again!!!". Was the pup put in fear for her very life? You betcha, she bolted under the deck when released, and I did not see her (or her two littermates which were not involved in the infraction but had bolted to the deck as soon as the ruckus started, "Grandpa's mad, we're outta here") again for two hours. Did the errant pup ever repeat the sin? Not only NO, but HELL NO. Did any of the pups involved suffer any PTSD or physical injury? No, there was not a mark on the offender (ie., the male inhibited the bite, thus heeding the inborn prohibition against injuring the other members of your pack), and the only behavioral change I saw was a monumental increase in respect, and in the pups' desire to control their mouths. When I turned them all out together the next day, all three pups immediately went to the male and offered the him a submission display, he rewarded them with reassuring attention, and all was copacetic.

I also observed two other similar instances, two different males and pups; one male roared and snatched an 8 week old pup up off the floor when she dove into his food dish ("MINE kid, get lost; if I don't get to eat, you will ultimately be minus your pack leader" ), and the other incident involved a youngster which tried to appropriate a bumper the male had just retrieved. As the pup approached, the male dropped his head and locked up over the bumper, made hard eye contact with the pup and gave a warning growl. The pup ignored the threat display and kept coming, and when he reached for the bumper, the male roared and squashed him flat ( "Possession is nine points kid, go away"). Both incidents had the same result as the first one I described.

Have to do chores and eat lunch and go to work etc. I will post the conclusions I drew from these incidents later on.