I voted yes because before Maddy no I didn't as with Charlie and Dusty I didn't feel it was needed, but since Mad came along and after all her problems started, I tried it and she has improved tenfold in the house, so it defintely works for us. She is a lot less stressed, much better behaved and much more settled.

I wouldn't so much use the term dominance as it's not like i'm contantly having them belly up or anything, they still get on the sofa and the bed but only when I invite them up. I see it more as respect for their owners and that they realise i'm not to be pushed around, which I feel is important.

They don't barge about or jump up or constantly fuss for attention which was what Maddy would spend most of her time doing, being 'pushy'. That is now mostly resolved, so like I said, works for us and I agree, some breeds do seem to need it more than others. All my lot are clearly show submissive behaviour towards me, but none are hand shy or scared or frightful of me, that is not what submissive means. It means doing as you are told and not bossing your owner about. Like it or lump it, the owner should always be in charge or the animal at all times and this does put you in the place of 'boss', 'leader' whatever you want to call it.

On the CM topic, I have watched quite a few episodes now with interest. I have yet to see him hurt a dog this is not the issue I see. I don't think it is a show that should be on air clearly because some people are not (how can I put this) 'clever' enough (for want of better words) to realise that such techinques do indeed need to be carried out by a professional or at least someone who knows their dogs and behaviour pattern if they are to work. Definately not methods for the regular Joe owner.

I voted yes because we do have a pack structure in our house BUT we do not do dominance.

Our dogs live in the house with us and sleep with us. They eat first as that is the way we are. We ate late. The dogs know when we are eating and lay down on their beds.

They are generally well behaved dogs that have their moments when their not

I would hope that our dogs are obedient because they love us and please us because they want to. One of our dogs has won obedience competitions, another is still a puppy and the other 9 years old with not much training but all of them have manners and know how to behave without dominating them.

I have not seen Ceasar Milan so cannot comment apart from saying its a tv programme. What goes on that isn't filmed?

Hi Pod, thanks for the post, was starting to feel a bit out on a limb there, the problem is, sometimes you need to react in this way because the dog is gona have you big time or another dog, there is a few split seconds, where you can poss use this method to advantage, but miss that few seconds and it could all go horribly wrong, I wouldnt ever give it out as general advice, as said it has to be used on the right dog at the right time, As to PATCH stateing its this and that,,,poss she could enlighten us with what she would do if ten stone of ASBO dog is flying through the air at your face? if I find another method im more than happy to try it, but when its came to the crunch before this has saved my bacon, to restrain a dog is not a bad thing, is it, given the alternative of oh we cant possibly do that,,,,we will just let it rip someone to bits,

so anyone reading this,,,DONT TRY THIS AT HOME
Get a behaviourist,,who will charge you a fortune to sit and do doggy social work

Really, def dont find that here! 3 High drive Collies & 2 Grons, including 2 entire Males! They arent stressed at all! nor am i!!!!!

As i said earlier, i used to try to do abit of Alpha stuff, i hated it & the dogs were like little robots. Now they are Expressive & happy.

Everyone has their own ways,if you are happy being the Boss/Alpha etc etc, then thats fine, but its not for everyone.

I prefer the relationship i have with my dogs now!

I really don't care what else anyone comes out with. I have never seen a metal choke chain on any of the dogs in his programme, and certainly not prong collars.
He just uses whatever collar and lead the owner has on the dog, and sometimes he puts his own special brand of collar on them.
Although he uses 'the alpha roll,' in a way, I don't like to call it that in regards to his programme because it carries negative associations and is something which some people do use aggressively and in an over-forceful and dangerous way.
All he ever does is just tip the dog over, he isn't rough, or abusive. He has to be a little forceful to stop the dog wriggling out of it, but all the dogs on his programmes that I've seen have gone into it pretty easily. I honestly have absolutely no idea where people have got their ideas that is so awful. He always seems calm, knowledgeable and has the right degree of assertiveness but without aggression. The dogs are not frightnened. Their body language does not show fear, they are not frozen like robots, and all his dogs, when shown are always happily milling around. They are peaceful, sniffing, playing, and receptive to him. If they were scared they'd cower and run away but they don't, they follow him.
I think what is happening is that just because he isn't a massive advocate of 'positive reinforcement and clicker training,' and all that 'nice,' stuff that is hot at the moment, and because he ocasionally uses some methods such as the alpha roll which have been associated with punitive styles of dog training, people are treating him as though he is one of those old fashioned dog trainers himself- who use choke chains, and jerk, and beat their dogs into submission. If he was like that he wouldn't be on telly, he wouldn't be supported by millions of people, because that sort of training isn't condoned now. When I said he jerks the dog I mean he just stops the dog sniffing and pulling for a minute or so until the dog starts paying attention. They are likethat because none has ever made them pay attention. That is because people are too afraid to do anything 'horrible,' and because they constantly mollycoddle their dog and let it get away with everything. The only people Cesar has trouble with helping, are tose who cannot let go of treating their dog like a baby, and a victim. They think he's being cruel, just because he's making the dog face something he's scared of and the dog kicks up a fuss. The dog can't always get out of enerything just by having a tantrum. That tantrum, where they're squealing and writhing, is probably what makes people think he's being cruel, but it's not him, it's the dog.The dog has learnt that it's his right not to bother to face anything and he'll always be comforted and encouraged to be fearful by his owner. They need positive, assertive, calm leaders. Not just 'love.'
I think you are frankly over- sensitive, far too biased and accusing, and need to try and listen to and watch his programmes properly. I genuinely don't know where on earth you're coming from- same programme? Choke chains?? Fear??

I don't know why you are getting so irate, it's not as if you know CM personally (or do you?) and you are simply basing your opinion on him on the TV programme, well so are we, if we don't like what we see then we are perfectly at liberty to say so, that's called freedom of speech.
I don't like the methods of other TV dog trainers either and have said so. My methods work for me (and it would appear others as well) where we don't feel the need to have to ensure that our dogs are always in line and not allowed to put a foot wrong and have to be 'dominated' and forced to face problems they simply cannot cope with.
Now you may not like the fact that some of us can get through life without the dominance theory but that is a FACT. I tired the dominance stuff when there were very few alternatives, I was brought up on Barbara Woodhouse, but when I realised it didn't work for me I use the method that does, that is teaching your dogs the rules you expect of it and letting them have the freedom to think for themselves and be themselves in a nice happy relaxed atmosphere.
Becky

There see- you are comparing Cesar to barbara Woodhouse, just like I said. She was a 'Dog trainer,' who based her methods on punishment, force, an aggressive attitude, and trained dogs to come, sit, stay etc. There's more than one type of 'dominance.' You can either take it to mean intimidating your dog through force- which most people seem to believe is the only way to be dominant. Or you can be a noble, calm LEADER. Wolves and wild dogs without a doubt have a pack structure so that is not up for debate. Famous wolf- scientists such as Mech have studied wolves day in and day out, and the pack organisation is something they know very well- the roles of alpha, beta, omega wolves etc. A pack wouldn't survive in the wild if everyone just did their own thing. That instinct has been passed on to dogs, whether people like it or not- people who think 'dominance,' theory means scaring their dog into submission, or not being their 'friend,' anymore. Many people may live very happily without using it, I'm not denying that, but an understanding of dog psychology, involves an understanding of the pack, and of dominance.

Cesar is not a trainer. He doesn't teach come, sit, stay. He rehabilitates the dog, teaching it a calm, peaceful and receptive attitude, and he does that in a calm, assertive way, using no yelling, pain, or fear.
If you look on his website you can read his philosophy, and there's also a picture of him playing with his dogs-who look very happy, not frozen with fear.
He also mentions many times across his website that he would never lose his temper, and hit a dog. He says a quick touch correction is not the same as strike and you should never strike a dog.

Blimey you are touchy! I have no where compared CM to BW at all!
Becky

I would like to know this too !

:smt043 How true

I sit on the fence as far as CM is concerned, but I have to say that I don't think you can have seen all of his programmes.

I have watched a few (by no means all) and have seen him use choke chains and once a prong collar.

If I recall the prong collar belonged to the owner & it may be that he thought if they were going to use it, better to show them how to use it properly (if that is possible) but whatever, I can promise you that he did use a prong collar on a dog. Wouldn't it have been better for him to show the owners that they didn't need such a tool?