WOW! 100 posts in this thread and Adam has made 5 of them!! Not quite "Adams" thread is it!

Ok my last post on here; i hope to god e collars are banned in the UK soon! positive training may involve mild aversives but they are NOT the motivation for the dog performing the desired behaviour FACT! the dog performs the behaviour because it is motivated by the reward FACT!

hi Adam thanks for the reply, forgot about the 2 post reply thing.

after a dog has had its training sessions with the e collar, is the collar a permanent fixture, meaning does the dog react different without the collar or does the dog slowly slip back into old ways, or does the dog just need a few reminders with the collar to get it behaving right again, or can the collar be removed and never used again and just positive reinforcement used to keep the dog in check.

scotty

Scotty that's what I was wondering with an e collar as well, I know how to wean a dog from the leash & such by OC (opperant conditioning) combined with PR (positive renforcement) to achieve this, but isn't relying on an e collar the same as relying on treats, leashes (or even praise) if the tool is implied incorrectly? I would think that using an e collar to teach EVERY behavior would create a crutch.

well Adam should be able to let us know as i think he stays in contact with dogs and owners he has e collar trained

Scotty that's what I was wondering with an e collar as well, I know how to wean a dog from the leash & such by OC (opperant conditioning) combined with PR (positive renforcement) to achieve this, but isn't relying on an e collar the same as relying on treats, leashes (or even praise) if the tool is implied incorrectly? I would think that using an e collar to teach EVERY behavior would create a crutch.

I've got a working bred Labrador bitch here, who, as soon as food is in the equation, becomes extremely aggitated. I only use very mild praise with her, anything else is way over the top. I do get growly/grumbly with her, because she has made herself ill by eating stuff that's simply disgusting. I wouldn't dream of using an e-collar on her, thankfully, I seem to be getting to the bottom of the problem, but yes, dogs do exist that are not happy or balanced in the presence of food rewards, more headless chicken.

Like anything else, you have to tailor to suit the needs of the dog. An overly motivated by reward dog needs to have the rewards toned down. Usually, these are the easiest dogs to train in many respects as they are also highly motivated to achieve.

Most definitely agree, she is incredibly easy to train, if a little repetetive, she needs to learn things the same way a number of times before it sinks in, but once she's learnt, it's in there. But she is an entirely different beast to my two, who are food orientated, one more so than the other, but both can be persuaded to be calm and do *something* with a bit of nice food. Tess on the other hand would be headless chicken gal for a bit of a treat, however, for a nice sit, without jumping up a well emphasised 'good lass' without even fussing her, gets her tail wagging furiously.

I think the point I was trying to make, on here, as well as on another current thread, which I haven't been back to look on as yet, is that individual dog and individual handler, equals individual case. I own, and have always owned, pretty easy dogs training wise, and the saying that pops into my head reading this type of thread is 'there but by the grace of God' - I don't plan on owning such a difficult dog, but if I did, would I use one of these dratted gadgets or devices? The closest I've come to it so far, is with an old rescue Lab x collie, who wouldn't walk nicely on a collar and lead, and because she had a deformed soft palette, which basically meant she'd choke herself if she pulled against a collar, I walked her on a harness and lead. I thought that at an estimated 17 years old when handed in to rescue to be pts, it was a bit old to be enforcing heelwork, and she should perhaps just enjoy her last home.

Scotty/dogdragonese

Basically no, collars are not needed long term, it usually takes between 3 and 8 weeks to wean a dog off a collar!

Many times the dog only needs the collar for the duration of the training and is then trained for life!

Some owners prefer to keep collars on for longer, this includes dogs with history of severe social aggression, those with history of severe predatory aggression and those that the owner is especially concerned about recall on, for example many sibe owners like to keep a collar on for longer.

My own dogs have all had collar training and no longer wear them in many circumstances, for example yesterday up on the moors for three hours with the two jrts and the collies.
100S of sheep and ponies, even a few cows! Grouse (I think) and hares. No collars, no chasing no problem!

Basically e collars very rapidly condition a automatic response to the command so the command becomes super powerful and the dog reacts to it without concise thought, I can provide the science for this if you want.

This brings me to another point.

When using escape training you want to stim at the same time as giving the command! When using avoidance training you stim at the same time as the 2nd command or the leave/no command.
We want the dog to have a classical conditioning association with the command and stim so the command becomes stim!

Tarimore

Yes that has been my experience of some dogs too, it might be possible to calm her food behaviour down with an e collar, basically she will relax because the collar makes things crystal clear to her and will worry less about the food as a result. However you seem to have found a easy way around it.

Any more question just ask.

Adam