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Chris
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24-01-2011, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
Surely, skin irritation/reaction is just that - the operator becomes irrelevant. So, experienced e-collar trainer or not is not important.
It's the operator that fits the collar to the dog. It's the operator that decides how long it stays on the dog and it's the operator who is responsible for moving the collar at intervals (as recommended) and for checking the skin area frequently. The operator is a very big important factor and yet I've seen on other forums that even experienced trainers often ignore these guidelines and leave collars on for longer than recommended - trainers, not inexperienced users. Frightening, isn't it.

Responsible caring owner first. PR. Consistent training. If needed, behavioural consultation/professional advice. Still got a problem, consider the aversive alternatives.
What happens in reality is that many buy a collar off the internet, stick it on the dog and turn up the dial. Many don't even read the instructions that come with it further than how to fit the batteries. Even more frightening.

No statistics on that, but if that's how it was, I suspect not many would make it to the aversive stage, and fewer would be abandoned/PTS.
Most dogs that end up PTS on behavioural grounds have never been near a behaviourist or trainer - if only!

I believe it would drive their use underground, or, without being able to seek advice about using lead to more abandoned dogs - JMO.
It would be difficult for the owner to 'go underground' for many of the problems they are seeking the 'magic pill' for. Taking the dog in a public area wearing a collar would risk prosecution. Most of the problems they are used for are 'easy fixers' without the need for physical aversives and with the more difficult problems, there's no guarantees that the collar will have any effect or, indeed, that they won't make problems worse or new problems appear so the proposition of abandonment/PTS is just applicable in this respect. The 'do or die' argument is a common one put forward by e-collar trainers and users and one that both salves consciences and gains them support which is, of course, the intention.

Politics and self interest, whilst the dogs suffer and pay the price.
Or passion. There are many responsible and very good trainers who just want to ensure that any regulation brought in is in the best interests of both dogs and owners. These responsible trainers would welcome effective regulation.

Pressure from owners for a quick result has been mentioned previously. I know of owners who have given up on their dogs, and dogs that have been put to sleep - all down to human failing.

I've said it before, but if using an e-collar avoids a dog being given up on, abandoned in the streets, put in a pound where many are PTS - it's a price I find acceptable. I know you disagree, but we'll just have to disagree....
Yep, we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree because 'IF' is the key word and the 'IF' doesn't happen nearly so regularly and some would have us believe. In fact, very often dogs that could be easily saved are screwed by the aversives that impatient owners would be guaranteed to give them up. Some are lucky and end up in the hands of those that are willing to work with the dog, most aren't

You've worn me out

Thanks for the discussion.

Michael
Sorry, it's just one of my soap-box issues. I hate when us humans justify hurting dogs in the name of training so it's a subject I will debate long and hard.

What is good is that our discussions have hopefully shown that issues can be discussed without nastiness taking place so thank you also
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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24-01-2011, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
With regards to misuse.

There is a huge amount of info out there about using collars.

The internet has in many ways opened the door to there use as youtube and US websites provide info for free about excat training methods and approaches.

In the uk there are vids available st the same places that collars are sold at.

For example , Robin macfarlenes latest video training set went on sale at end of Oct & just took off, 34 copies sold so far this month and Jans a bad month after xmas spending spree.

Adam
So are you saying that you find it perfectly OK for any member of the GP to be able to get their hands on a e collar for as little as £10 because there are videos on youtube and they can buy videos and instructions?
- even tho they are all contadictory? in a v small search I did one said not to be used for agression problems, another talked about a 'correction shock' others how rewarding they were, others how the new features means if you hold the button longer the shock gets more intense
they also talk about how adjustable the pins are to take into account the thickness of the dogs coat - but some say it shouldnt be in contact with the skin, some say it should and some dont mention it

Glad I dont use one - all confusing
Chris
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24-01-2011, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
With regards to the study, where does it say he withdrew from the study? just in case you don’t understand, section 4 is one of the 5 sections of the study design.

Adam
did you read what you wrote Adam, the part that both myself and (I think) Minihaha quote back to you? I don't think it can be interpreted any other way as your statement was quite clear
Lucky Star
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24-01-2011, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
With regards to the study, where does it say he withdrew from the study? just in case you don’t understand, section 4 is one of the 5 sections of the study design.

Adam


Such a patronising statement from an e-collar user who does not have the faintest clue about science or how his chosen instrument works. Spare us, Adam, please.
Chris
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24-01-2011, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
So are you saying that you find it perfectly OK for any member of the GP to be able to get their hands on a e collar for as little as £10 because there are videos on youtube and they can buy videos and instructions?
- even tho they are all contadictory? in a v small search I did one said not to be used for agression problems, another talked about a 'correction shock' others how rewarding they were, others how the new features means if you hold the button longer the shock gets more intense
they also talk about how adjustable the pins are to take into account the thickness of the dogs coat - but some say it shouldnt be in contact with the skin, some say it should and some dont mention it

Glad I dont use one - all confusing
I can go one better than that. I know of one e-collar user and trainer that was banned from a forum run by another e-collar user and trainer because they disagreed on method of use
Adam P
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24-01-2011, 09:52 PM
A ban won't change much imo.

You can buy collars from abroad and they usually ship marked training collar or whatever, no mention of e.

Most modern e collars are quite small, put them on a medium coated dog and the reciever disappears. If you keep the remote in your pocket people wouldn't know a thing!

I and my clients are open about our use of collars, but I know people who have been part of a training/walking group that has a bad attitude to them and who use them.
They hide it under a thick leather collar (even on smooth haired types) and keep the remote out of sight, no one knows!

Also spray collars, pager collars all a black/grey box on the neck!

A ban will drive use underground and prevent people getting practical education on the subject.

Adam
Chris
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24-01-2011, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
With regards to the study, where does it say he withdrew from the study? just in case you don’t understand, section 4 is one of the 5 sections of the study design.

Adam
Your earlier quote, Adam:

Strange APBC wants to ban collars, strange because in Aug 2009 one of its members, Professor Mills of Lincoln University, was confronted by ECMA and as a result he then had to contact DEFRA and tell them he did not know enough about collars to continue a study contract for DEFRA, so if APBCs’ most eminent member knew nothing about collars I doubt any of them know anything, in which case they can have no opinion on them
Where does that mention that the study was held while the study design met the approval of one of the main parties involved??

What you do say is quite clear:

"Professor Mills of Lincoln University, was confronted by ECMA and as a result he then had to contact DEFRA and tell them he did not know enough about collars to continue a study contract for DEFRA"

This is a LIE at best and a LIE at worst!!
Lucky Star
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24-01-2011, 09:55 PM
It is such a shame, Adam (Denam/Adis) that you are unable to hold your own and have to resort to being spoonfed by your master. He is not too convincing either.
MerlinsMum
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24-01-2011, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
A ban will drive use underground and prevent people getting practical education on the subject.
Don't think they're getting much now Adam, which is why this whole thread exists.
Lucky Star
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24-01-2011, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post

A ban will drive use underground and prevent people getting practical education on the subject.

Adam
Practical education - ah yes, that would involve practicing using e-collars on dogs. Repeatedly. That's a learning technique, isn't it, repetition?

So you're not talking about using the collars for saving dogs about to be put to sleep; let's be clear - you are talking about learning e-collar skills, using dogs.
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