And you'd be right to an extent, but I stress again, we need to look at the context. These are the dogs where the owners, sometimes over years, haven't issued such more common requests to their dog(s).

What then happens is that the dog has almost been conditioned to do as it pleases, put its attention elsewhere, and so forth. When it reaches this stage, sometimes, a polite word in the dog's ear just won't have an effect. At least not the required one.

I don't think anyone should watch any of these programmes and feel what is shown is the only method. However, it is a method, and in the case of the bottle, a very valid one in some contexts, in my view.

Any method you choose can be taken to an extreme or given with a warning of "in the wrong hands..." but I find these reactions somewhat over-zealous and slightly knee-jerk.

Aside from that, I honestly believe that by cutting oneself off from such methods, which, let's remember, were used and working waaaaay before the more currently trendy methods came along, you may be doing your dog and yourself a great disservice.

I maintain that there are only two beings rightly qualified to judge what is right for YOU and YOUR dog, and that is you and your dog. For every minute you spend with your head in a book, reading the latest fads to hit the training world, spend five minutes learning to read your dog. With that, you really can't go far wrong.

What concerns me is that the small minority spouting off that this is cruel and that is cruel, are, by definition, saying everyone who uses such methods are unfit dog owners. I've used the bottle more than once, and so, again by definition, you are stating that I'm not fit to train or own my dog. My dog and I strongly disagree with you!

It is that sort of thing that can be quite disheartening to read day after day.

Ailsa, I'm actually the person, I think, that GSD Lover got annoyed with - that's his prerogative, but i do agree with you, just because some like you and I say "that's cruel" it doesn't mean the debate is ended, that a "card" is being played or anything else...

I have felt concerned myself about posting onthreads such as this since I had a disagreement with others, but I am strong enough minded to be able to debate and hopefully not hold grudges. I do feel though that on a dog forum one has to understand there are many different folk. t's not fair to come on and say "anyone who says it is cruel is playing a card" or whatever because then that stifles what those folk want to say!

Wys
x

I wouldn't use a rattle bottle Azz because I've honestly got to the stage now where i'd not need to. An example is my own dog - some years ago I used a water squirter on her to stop her puppy biting. At the time I was so frustrated it seemed fair enough. I know many dogs learn to stop the nipping. However, my dog did 2 things: started to come back at me, and started to watch me mistrustfully. I learnt an awful lot from that, took advice and read good books and actually concentrated on not only consequences (such as me going out the room or her being put out for 5 minutes) but me giving her alternatives and showing her what I did want her to do(ie training a settle, or playing with various chewies and kongs). This worked much better and I felt better too :smt002

If I'd continued, I have no doubt that our relationship would have been damaged and that I'd have taught her to be wary of my hands and she would also have learnt to control me with her darting fast to dodge the squirter.

Some dogs are trained with rattle bottles and do fine and stop, some dogs are actually scared, some dogs will react like mine - the thing is, you can't always tell, which is why in my book it's so irresponsible to show it on tv.

Also you can get owners using it for every misdemeanour and it can either lose its power or make the dog react in a way not wanted ie aggressively or ignoring, and this can build up a big problem of the dog learnig it can be in control.

One last thing - punishment if used has to be used correctly. In the last series the female trainer timed it badly and the dog was sometimes punished when doing the wanted, correct behaviour!

I'm trying to keep my posts fairly short as i could go on and just never stop... Dogs do find this type of thing horrendously confusing and it is simply bad training.

What seems clear to me is that some must be using or perceiving the method in entirely the wrong context then. It isn't designed to stop a behaviour and never has been.

It's designed to get the attention of a dog which, for whatever reason, won't focus upon you using other means. In my case, for example, Blondi was left outside by her owner when he got a "better" dog. Ergo, she learned to just fend for herself and do things her way.

The split second you have that attention, then you show the alternative. You can't, no matter how good you are and how many books you read, show an alternative to a dog when the dog has its nose pointing thr other way, sniffing the roses.

Sorry I read this and meant to reply This is the sort of thing I love reading about - more dogs need this kind of thing. I may disagree with Mic on some things but on a more positive note I know just how much a dog "doing something" can thrill not just the dog but the owner too

Thanks for replying Wysiwyg.

I can appreciate where you are coming from

I too think that common sense must be used with training as all too often people have the right idea, but are just doing it wrong. On the show for example, it's inevitable the people will be doing things wrong, as they are learning themselves... of course this makes 'good' tv as then they get told off/made to do push-ups etc so the producers get what they want. The shows are 'entertainment' and not training aids (hence they play the disclaimer at the end).

With regards to training a dog not to do something, I've always been taught that timing is essential, so if you go in a room and a dog has peed, there really is no use telling the dog he's naughty - because he won't make the association.
I think most of the time, your voice and own body language is your biggest asset and training tool. For example, saying 'leave' in one way and praising, in another, can be the key.... but, not everyone knows how to communicate properly, hence trainers bring in tools to make it easier.

A whistle - for those that just can't get excited enough perhaps? (the last dog borstal demonstrated this well with that guy who thought getting all excited would make him appear less, er, manly )

Rattle bottles - when you need to make a firm, but distracting sound to distract the dog from something you don't want - but something that actually grabs their attention AND then praise for good behaviour. Or of course just ignore the dog if no harm is being done (eg barking - they soon get bored of it! - better still give them something so they're not bored in the first place )

I'm all for 'nicer'(?) techniques, but they really must be doable and workable for the average person out there - and I'd much rather see people use rattle bottles (correctly) and whistles than horrible electric shock collars

Again, I agree that people should look at the other aspects too, the causes. I bet a lot of the problems are actually at least 50% countered by dogs being giving adequate exercise, and things to do to prevent them from getting bored (such as kongs), and of course better diets... but I suspect the producers think this is too boring to shout about so unfortunately, the people who need to know that stuff don't get to hear about it

But thank god for websites like Dogsey where we can write quick start guides and articles to get the job done

Please note these are just my opinions as of now - they may change, as I am always open to better ways of doing things

Sorry only got time to post a quicky at the mo...son is waiting for me to do a game on here with him!
As I posted before sometimes a rattle bottle, inmy opinion, can work...in the right hands....ie an experienced trainer.

Sadly the things you mention Azz...diet/exercise/entertainment and basic obedience are the things that could help these dogs the most...but training 'aids' like rattle bottles can do more damage than good if used incorrectly...which they could well be after the owners have gone home, or by someone sitting at home and watching...fear can even provoke aggression in some case...
The trouble with these aids seeming to work on shows like DB is that unqualified people will see the results and go to use them...that's my concern...

IMHO my voice, my hands (for tickles only) and food are my main training aids...(okay collars and leads help and I needed a gentle leader for a while at one point...I'm talking main aids...)....
I'm not totally anit rattle bottle, they have their place, but a small one and only in the right hands...IMO

To side slightly with GSDLover, Mic got us using the squirter to get her attention, while using 'No' (well, actually 'Nah', which i couldnt get the hang of at first - 10 press ups fixed me!).

It was because we had difficulty getting her to stop things (chewing, getting things off tables etc) we needed to reinforce the 'Nah' and the water got her attention.

Now a Nah stops her doing things wrong, and we're working slowly on her never doing something wrong - an uphill battle really but par for the course!

As for voices, my girlfriend has mentioned I now have the campest 'fetch it' known to mankind. Its great on clapham common with a pug!

Please bear with me, for an agility instructors views on this
How high a dog `can` jump is not the issue. Agility training involves a lot of jumping in a short space of time so its very concentrated. That means stresses on joints and muscles is very compacted and is why not having dogs over-jumping is vital.
My students with Large dogs do most of their training at Small or Medium height for just this reason, and only use full height for competition prep and even then only for part of a session, not all of it.

When a little dog jumps high on to a sofa, its a soft landing, but if jumping on and off in multiple quick succession, it could be harmful.

An occasional leap up a few stairs at a time is not the same as a prolonged repetitive pounding for a dog jumping higher than it should in Agility.

Hope that helps clarify why I`m so hot on it :smt001


Oh heck, of course not !
The last thing I want is for you to think its you I`m blaming if your littl`un was indeed jumping too high for the agility bits !
You are not the trainer, you did what you believed was ok, thats the trainers fault if the wrong height was used :smt075 not yours :smt058

I'd love to see/hear that!

I think the attention thing is so very difficult for owners. Dogs can't and won't respond if their noses are elsewhere.

But dogs are in an alien world to an extent, we have to help them understand what we want of them.

I was helping at a training class last year - a super little working cocker belonging to an elderly lady was just running rings around her, and going a bit bonkers (think he may have needed a change of diet too...).

We solved that by teaching him "Watch me". Once you teach that, you can use it and the dog has the attention on you ... then you are in control.

I've found that even with awkward dogs, conditioning the dog to the clicker (which gets the dog initially interested and then you get basic attention) and then going on to teach the Watch me, solves the problem.

Most dogs love working and being trained if it's postive, you can then get the attitude and Bob's your uncle!

I'm just tossing out a few thoughts, please don't think I'm getting at you personally for doing it Mic's way, as I really don't mean it like that :smt008 (Patch, I've stolen that emoticon, it's really sweet!!)

As someone who is involved in training and behaviour, I am always on the side of the owner and it's great that you've come on and are so open about everything.