No, there were either signs, a health issue, or a dangerous dog IMHO

Oh I thought you meant body language signals in your previous post.


. If the dog has acted out in (whats now possibly known) pain or confusion from a health issue, I think thats different, as I think I said in another post. Is that CLEAR? hehe

I don't understand what you are pertaining to here???? When you say "different" what do you mean - Different to/from what?

So he acted out without signal and then a health issue that may have been present/cause was found?

We have never concluded what made his behaviour change the way it did, or indeed whether it really did - we only had his owners perceptions of former behaviour and the behaviour within the months we had known him, to go by and compare with - this was not my dog, but a customers, come colleague.

He had parvo as a pup (he had been vaccinated) and was on deaths door for a very long time, pumped full of drugs. There where questions over some of and the quantity of the drugs used to promote life. The illness, impacted his socialisation somewhat, but he went on "with some help" to be most excellent with most dogs and all puppies but not always all people - I later found out. He had gone on to perhaps an overly rich BARF diet. He had had builders working on his home. We Later discovered he had been taunted from behind his gate during the daytime. His socialisation with dogs and people had gone up significantly since attending class and he appeared to cope well, but was he really? Has play times and excercise routine hd gone up recently. He had a blood test which showed some heightened red bloods cells temporarily. He had recently had a very exciting encounter with a horse. he had lived in three homes in one year, He was routinely kennelled every other weekend.

So what do you think made him go off on one? Diet? past? breed traits? the actual event? recent events? Guarding behaviour directed to a venue that had recently become familiar and stable to him (one of my strongest suspicions), learned behaviour following failure to consequence former undesirable behaviours? ? ? ? ? ? ? what what what???

I did also write that and I think you should take each of them as an individual, I just stressed about breed traits.....

EVERY dog is an individual but with certain breeds there are certain traits that remain.......if anything you are 'en guard' for them appearing even if youve yet to see them in that particular dog.

We have grown together (no I'm not a hippy! ) so in a sort of way, yes. Has he grown, developed, changed etc, of course, but then Iv been there as these changes happened...so he didnt go from, funny little 8 week pup to what he is now. He's been him, with the same body language at certain times, likes, dislikes, traits that strengthen, traits that soften and some of that is due to events etc but I was there too, see it, understand it and expect it sort of thing.

For example pressure on the brain can affect the nervous system, irrational actions can happen very quickly. A tumour may cause vision to go very suddenly, causing a sudden lunge even though it appeared the 'target' was in his vision... A lack of oxygen to the brain can cause halucinations (sp?) causing 'snapping' Those are just examples of why you wouldnt see signs V's say, a healthy young dog who sees a 'threat' or 'attacks'

but I still believe any 'healthy' balanced dog would give off a sign in some way.

[QUOTE]So what do you think made him go off on one? Diet? No past? partly breed traits? played a part the actual event? the situation he was in and the tendancy to guard recent events?



Guarding behaviour directed to a venue that had recently become familiar and stable to him (one of my strongest suspicions), learned behaviour following failure to consequence former undesirable behaviours? ? ? ? ? ? ? what what what??? With this you mean to do with the taunting?[/QUOTE]

This depends on a lot. I dont think it would be diet but parvo can affect them, I think the owner knowing the past should have been a bit more cautious and not put a known dominant, guarding breed, who hasnt had that long to 'bond' and 'settle in' and really get to know him, in a position without having told him as the person was approaching 'leave' or 'it's ok' or whatever they use, if they had even got that far knowing he wasnt greatly socialised or just simply moved him. So in a way, all of these things. Perhaps the only reason he never 'bit' whilst being taunted was the fact there was something between him and the 'offenders'?

At the end of the day, a dog that you havent owned for very long, you do not know well and personally I would like to think I wouldnt have put him in any position where he may have felt the need to guard in any way, that would have been enough to prevent that accident happening IMHO. As for relevance to the thread, if you havent got to know the dog well enough yet, you simply may not see the 'signals' yet...

[QUOTE=Dobermann;2096010] Can I ask how you would you put a dog in a position where there is nothing at all, to guard?

I like to believe (though I could be wrong)I have probably seen and trained enough dogs to be able to read the signals pretty well. There where not any.

[QUOTE=Lotsadogs;2096045] Simply, get the dog up and move from the stranger headed for the handler as he is a dog that will most likley guard.

[QUOTE=Lotsadogs;2096045] I should maybe be responding to the quote that prompted this, rather than this, as I have come across dogs who will guard fluff, leaves, spots of light/shade, things secreted in their mouths, too small to be seen from outside their mouths, personal space (which can depend how many seconds they have been in that spot) etc.

Short of keeping them moving and focused on their handler not anything else, when they may guard the handler moving them, it is not always feasible to ensure there is nothing to guard.

To further complicate the matter, not all dogs' tendencies to guard are consistent so unpredictability makes management and effective consistent anticipation much more difficult.

Ironically IME it is often when things are greatly improving that there can be highest risk, if people get blase' and reduce their caution.

Animal behaviour, including the human animal, can always be unpredictable so IMO no one can be 100% sure as to how their dog would act in every situation, not least because you cannot control every variable, including other people.

My dogs throughout my lifetime, including guard breeds, have never bitten anyone and my sighthounds have never chased and killed anything but would I 100% guarantee that some unforseen, previously unexperienced situation couldn't arise tomorrow that could change that?

I would say very, very, very unlikely, on past experience and current management and training but who honestly knows for sure, whatever dog?

[QUOTE=Tass;2096072] Exactly. I agree with that, but then dogs are great at knowing when youv'e 'clocked off' whether thier owner does or not

[QUOTE=Dobermann;2096047] Ohhh right - I see!

[QUOTE=Dobermann;2096047] And who should move this dog?
The handler, as the dog may object to anyone else approaching him?

What if someone else passes as he is moved and the dog decides he/she was too close and bites them?

After the event, should that have happened, it would be easy to say why wasn't the dog left where he had settled, rather than agitated by being moved?

It is always easy to see another way of doing things after the event, with 20/20 hindsight and all the time in the world to consider it, without knowing how that course of action would itself have turned out.