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labradork
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02-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I think a lot of people read the advice given by the KC :



http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/395

This is the advice that I think is potentially harmful. Nowhere do they specify that they are advising people to restrict onlead walking to the 5 minute rule. The way I read it they are specifically talking about getting out and about, off-lead and meeting other dogs in new environments.

For many breeds 5 minutes per month is simply not enough to allow healthy development and to prepare the dog for it's adult lifestyle. How can it even be a sensible guide. Consider the two extremes in the canine world - the husky (capable of covering more than a hundred miles a day as an adult) and the greyhound (capable of only short sprints as an adult). Common sense should tell you that you cannot apply a single puppy exercise guideline that's suitable to both these breeds.
It says up to 5 minutes TWICE a day. Like the OP, I have a 16 week old pup of a very active working breed. I find that one off lead run (20 minutes roughly) plus a short controlled lead walk later on + training and play with my other dogs is plenty for her. Two off lead runs only over stimulates her and makes it very difficult for her to settle down. If I exercised her for 2 or 3 hours like the OP, I would dread to think what her behaviour would be like.
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scarter
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05-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Helena54 View Post
But it's all to do with the development of the puppy isn't it Scarter, and that's why they are giving us a guideline of the 5 mins. per month. I understand what you're saying about the different breeds covering different distances, but that's when they're older isn't it. Imo, it's imperative with growing joints to let them do just that, grow, not forgetting the horrendous pain you can put into some dog's who have been over-exercised causing joint pain, so much so, that they have had to be pts, I've even read a thread on here about one puppy suffering with this condition, but I've forgotten the name for it, (could it be that pano?).

Everything needs to be done slowly, and when you're being sensible and doing shorter walks on softer surfaces, you are being kind to the joints, and building up muscle slowly, hopefully ending up with a good athlete when fully mature with no arthritis or other joint problems.

A puppy is just that, a baby, and you wouldn't expect a 4yr old child to run a marathon would you, even though he'd probably give it a try, and yet when that growing child is fully grown, he can do just that! That's how I see it anyway.
Helena, yes it's about development - preparation for the adult life they will leed.

A human could never run 100 miles a day pulling a sled the way a husky does. Human adults have far less strenuous lives than a hard working dog yet people realise that it's harmful to wrap children in cotton wool and deny them lots of healthy exercise. Yet they think it's good to do this with dogs. Human children have wide open growth plates and soft bones - just like puppies.

I was very much an 'indoor' child. I wasn't very active at all. Yet I clearly remember being taken up Ben Lomond on my sixth birthday and people commenting that I climbed it 4 times over as I kept sprinting on ahead and then running back to my parents. A whole day of HEALTHY walking and climbing. Most people would throw up their hands in horror at the idea of a young pup of a few months old doing the same thing. Yet many people do this kind of thing with their dogs and all I see is very healthy, happy, fit animals.

No, you wouldn't let a 4 year old child run a marathon. Or a 3 month old dog. But given that some breeds of dog can run 100 miles a day for many days in a row (something that no human is capable of) don't you see that young dogs of that breed will be capable of doing far more than a human child of comparable age?

By 6 months many breeds are capable of reproduction. So perhaps equivalent to a 12 year old child? Who in their right mind would restrict a 12 year old child to two 30 minute exercise sessions a day? And by 'exercise session' we're talking about a play in the park - not forced exercise and not drilling. A dog of active breed needs MUCH more exercise than a human.

If you intend to give your dog just an hour or two's exercise a day as an adult then no matter what the breed it would be unwise to allow the pup to develop to it's full physical potential (which in many breeds will be to run full pelt all day long). But if someone wants their adult dog to have a very active life they need to let it develop as nature intended. This doesn't mean forced exercise and drilling the dog, but letting it run and play pretty much as much as it wants to.

According to my vet (and it is just her opinion) the advice given by the KC is due to the fact that their are major problems with the health of some breeds. When a dog develops joint problems the breeders all too often point the finger at the owner accusing them of 'over-exercising'. But in actual fact the problems are genetic and unavoidable. Some people think that restricting exercise can lessen symptoms in a dog with a genetic disorder. But others believe that even in affected dogs it's best to give the pups plenty of exercise so they build strong muscles.

The 'worst' case of over-exercising I personally know of is from a friend of a friend that I met recently. The man is a marathon runner and he started taking their 6 month old Border Collie on training runs. He would run perhaps 10 miles a day at 6 months. The dog in question is now 18 years old and in a sorry state. It's blind, has lost control of it's back end. When it first developed joint problems at age 16 the owner asked the vet if it was because of the early distance running. The vet pointed out that had it not been for the dog's unusually strong heart (no doubt due to it's very active life style in earlier years) it would have almost certainly died when it developed a serious illness aged 14!!!

I met a lady in the park recently who's 3 year old lab was recovering from it's 2nd crutiate ligament problem. She explained to me that she couldn't understand it as she'd followed the advice to the letter regarding avoiding too much exercise whilst young.

There is no way of knowing for sure what is best for any given dog. It really comes down to the owner deciding what's best for their dog. They know their dog, it's history and what it's future life will be. Talk to your vet, talk to canine physios, talk to breeders....and draw your own conclusions. I'd always err on the side of letting the dogs overdo it a bit rather than restricting them and risking compromising their fitness levels and muscle development. But then I'm assured by vets, physios and breeders that my dogs are sound and not at significant risk of genetic disorders. And they are a hardy breed.
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Helena54
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05-09-2009, 12:48 PM
Good post there Scarter, and as you will see from my previous posts in here, I actually agree with you, I like to see my puppy free running, building up essential muscles, and as I also said, my own vet has even said to me that free running is actually beneficial to my dog's growing joints. I just feel that I wouldn't like to overdo this, because there is the play in the garden, the constant padding around the house, very little sleep at home now during the daytime coz she's 10 months nearly, so all that rolled into a day seems enough for me and different bursts of it.

I'm actually itching to get another mountain bike so that I can go a lot further, even though I'd pedal slowly so that they don't have to run, but I will just be able to keep up with them a bit better, but it all frightens the life out of me until she's fully mature, and although I've never, ever had a dog with any kind of joint problems prior to being 10 years of age, and even then, my 15 and 16 year olds only suffered on getting themselves up after a long sleep (and they didn't have the 5 min rule either!) now that I actually know about it, I'm willing to give it a try this time. I totally, totally, agree with you though, I would never, ever restrict my dog to a 45 min dragging lead walk on pavements, mine is totally different, they are free to do whatever they please out in the open countryside as long as they stay in sight, I love to see dogs being dogs, and none of my dogs have ever pounded the pavements, they've always been whisked off in the car to wherever to run, coz that's what dogs do imo!

I think far more damage can be caused to growing joints when a dog's exercise has been so restricted that it has to resort to zoomies around the house or even the garden come to that! Much safer to give them the run they need, so that they are then able to settle indoors or play in the garden without going mad, and if it breaks that 5 min rule then so be it, especially now and again. I use it as a guide, and I think that's what the KC are getting at, and it doesn't matter how many times a day you do that 5 min. guide I'm sure within reason, you won't be working overtired muscles or overstrained joints that way. I know all of this having had horses you see, overworked muscles build up toxins and cause problems, same as overworked joints especially when they're still growing, and I'm sure dogs end up in pain in their joints if they've been overworked at this young age, and the larger breeds of course, will take more of an impact, same as if they're overweight.
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06-09-2009, 11:41 AM
I think the problem is what people mean by exercise. Many people not as clued up as most here on Dogsey see a walk as a march along a road or perhaps roads & park, all on a lead as they have been told not to let puppy off till they have perfect recall.
I restrict road walking with my youngsters. Indeed I put them in a car & drive them to the field for free running. I also tend to restrict too much jumping & racing up & down stairs. Having said that one pup I sold about 15 years ago came with mine to be hip scored. His score was one different to his brothers yet he had been jumping on & off the top bunk since he was 5 months old. The vet said such exercise won't affect good hips but it can make poor hips worse.
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06-09-2009, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
In humans and most speicies in the animal kingdom the goal is to develop both mind and body through lots of vigorous play and exercise. Children and young animals normally have an inbuilt desire to run and play that tends to diminish in adulthood.

The dog's ancestor (the wolf) would think nothing of running a hundred miles a day in the migration season. From an early age the wolf pup had to be preparing to keep up with the pack. So somewhere back in history our dog's ancestors were genetically programmed to build up fitness quickly so that they were able to run considerable distances by the age of about 6 months old................................
The subject here is not wolf cubs, but domestic dog puppies. There are lots of difference between the two & just because it happens in the wild, does mean it refers to domestic dogs.

A puppy will walk as far as you take it, that doesn't mean it is right. You run the risk of damaging the growth plates in any puppy by over exercising & in all breeds you risk permanent damage to their joints.

There is an"american bulldog"that attends a training club I go to, his proud owners boast that they walk & exercise him for over 3 hours solid a day. The puppy is 10 months old & limps on his front legs, his elbows are turned out & front legs are bowed quite badly, his hindquarters are just as bad ! They can see nothing wrong with what they do nor how their dog moves & looks. On the other hand we have a Bulldog bitch puppy come, that hasn't been over exercised & is as sound as a bell, no breathing problems & whose front legs are slightly bowed around her chest & whose hindquarters are nicely muscled up & the movement is sound.

The rule of thumb is 5 per month per walk. Don't forget your puppy should be able to free run at home & by testing his/her brain, you will not just teach your dog"obedience"but actually tire him/her more quickly. Play builds up the bond between you & your dog. I see lots of people whose only "quality"time with their dogs is a long & often boring walk that is used to physically tire the dog, rather than give the dog enjoyment
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scarter
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06-09-2009, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by gsd sue
Having said that one pup I sold about 15 years ago came with mine to be hip scored. His score was one different to his brothers yet he had been jumping on & off the top bunk since he was 5 months old. The vet said such exercise won't affect good hips but it can make poor hips worse.
Now you're specifically talking about hip dysplasia. I think there's lots of confusion as to the reason behind the KC's famous '5 minute rule' (I'm assuming it is their 'invention'?).

Many experts believe that too much exercise when young is a contributing factor in Hip Dysplasia. Hip Dysplasia is a genetic disorder and as your vet pointed out to you, exercise can't possibly cause HD in a dog that isn't born with the genetic defect. It's not known for sure whether exercise makes the disease worse in affected dogs - some claim that exercise helps as it builds protective muscle around the joint and helps keep the dogs lean (being overweight is one of the biggest risk factors). Others claim that the wrong type of exercise when young can cause the defective hips to deteriorate more quickly. No one knows for sure - all we have is opinions and anecdotal evidence.

So, in breeds that are prone to HD you'll find that some breeders/vets/physios recommend restricted exercise for pups and others recommend letting the dogs run free to build up muscle around the joints (I think we've had breeders arguing both sides on this thread).

But in breeds that are NOT prone to HD is there reason to restrict exercise?

In dogs (just like humans...and wolves) the young have open growth plates. These allow the bones to grow and will close upon maturity. If a growth plate is damaged it can prevent the bone from growing properly resulting in a crippled dog (or human adult...or wolf). Growth plates can be damaged in the same way that any bone can be broken - through play, accidental collision etc. They can also be damaged through overuse - and this does in fact happen fairly frequently in children that are competitive athletes. But it's rare in children that just play without being coached or driven to do more than they want to do. And according to experts I've consulted the same is true of pups.

But if damage to growth plates is your concern then what's the best way to raise your pup in order to minimise risk? Well, it seems (based upon what experts have told me) you'd be hard pushed to cause damage simply through over-use. Long on-lead walks are unlikely to do damage unless you really take it to extremes (how far would you let your young child walk on pavements - do you let them run on tarmac?). Off-lead play in the park is gentler on the joints and even less likely to lead to over-use problems. However, a puppy with adreneline pumping through it's body will keep going much longer. It's muscles will get tired, it's coordination will be poor due to immaturity and the fact that it's body is constantly changing. A broken bone through collision or accident is a possibility. This can also happen to an adult dog at play. However, a break is more serious in a pup simply because of the risks involved in damaging open growth plates.

So, I think the blanket statement that off-lead play is safer or better is ill-advised. Probably the risk to joints is slightly higher.

However, the puppy benefits in so many ways through this off-lead play. And it's also important to remember that a puppy (or human child) that exercises in a wide variety of ways (as is natural for young too seek out) will have strong muscles which will make injury to bones and joints far less likely.

The well exercised pup has more risk of accident and injury due to exposure to more dangerous situations. However, it also has much more resilience than the 'protected' pup simply because it's had the opportunity to build up strong muscles and develop good coordination through play.

My vet did once tell me that they have more problems with pampered pooches breaking legs from falling off the bed than they do from active dogs getting injured during rough play. As with raising children it's a question of weighing up all the risks and deciding what's best overall for your particular pup.
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