Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that dogs should be treat like humans, I just thought that there was perhaps a less physical way to gain respect than using brute force and mimicking dog behaviour. Canine body langue can be very subtle and I'm sure that humans can do a pretty poor imitation of it so the effect is lost.

Are you saying this Method always works then?

Hiya

Yes i mentioned earlier that I do unreservedly I apologise if I am wrong, but another also trainer saw it and mentioned it without any prompting from me. Some websites sell collars especially for choking and strangling the dog so that it will pass out and it's called training.

Mic does use the Koehler method for some things, so this would make sense. The gasping was the kind of gaspinga dog would make if it was choking and trying to get breath back ...

sorry ceiron i have to disagree, i think those sorts of methods can lead to an esculation in behaviour over time, particularly with a young dog. In the wild dogs will seriously damage each other, it's great to emulate natural behaviour etc but aggression breeds aggression in my book, human or canine. Positive reinforcement teaches a dog another behaviour pattern over a longer time period.Those sort of methods tend to be quick fix. In fairness to Mic, he also used positive reinforcement with the dog during the show. just my opinion.....

But that's the thing, so much of our understanding is based on flawed science and wolf study on captive packs that was floored. UP to date studies on real blood wolf packs show the alpha roll tends to be something offered by one wolf to another.

In the wild, a wolf who was giving an alpha roll would be likely trying to kill the other.

Also, anyway, dogs are not wolves. It's not a matter of being anthropomorphic - it's a matter of understanding canine behaviour and not relying on old tales of dominance! and of being up to date with our knowledge which is moving on so fast now in the world of dogs.

As for postive reinforcement not working - any good trainer will understand learningtheory and the 5 parts - including extinction. Punishment may be a part of the toolbox but should not be used unless all else has failed which is clearly not the case on DB whatever is said.

Using aggression to punish can teach so many wrong things - and it's not needed, even on that weim.

What would you say should be done if the dog does not "give in" after being rolled? should the punishment get worse?

Remember, the UK police had to change their ways after police dog Acer was killed - that was not due to being alpha rolled but to being helicoptered and then kicked and he died.

The methods are similar - alpha rolling, helicoptering, etc come from the same school of thought. To me it's abuse.

I don't believe the weim was hurt in any way, shocked and stunned possibly that someone had dared at last to stand up to him. I for one would rather my dog was pinned and shocked into submission than PTS because it took a chunk out of someone.

Whats going to happen when people start to do this to there Dogs ,get it wrong get Bitten.And then take the Dogs to Vets to be PTS.

But what if the dog decided to obey the trainer but wanted to get more aggressive with others? That is the reality sometimes. It's something behaviourists see quite commonly - the use of aggression leading to more aggression. Yes it may solve the problem - or it may lead to the dog being still pts!

The Tv makes it look far too easy.

All the weim needed were boundaries, training, and that would have solved the problem. He was not seriously aggressive at all although he was very controlling and able to get whathe wanted

i believe the methods should be appropriate to the dog, in this case the alpha role was appropriate.

positive reinforcement does have its place also, i use it for my dog, so its not all bad.

i have seen the trainign methods the polie use also as i have had the oppoyrtunity to spend time wiht them and even play/train with their puppys

they use natural behaviour and reinforce this, which is a great method, however it is most effecive when young, heir is a criitical period to all the behaviour trainign etc ...

i also think the alpha role had a huge effect on the owner, y showing him thta the dog was able to be controlled etc ...

so again it was appropriate imo.

yes alot of wolf studys are flawed, as are a lot of studys but they all have a base.

im not sure what would have happened if the dog had not submited however i trust mic and he knew wht he was doing so took the appropriate action.

er, hope that covers points i nreply to my post, if it dont jsut say and wil ltry and answer as well as i can.

i think it was an owner thing too, not just fir the dog as said above.

i do think the tv did not make it very clear about the methods and their use and how it shouldnt be used unde rany circumstnaces unlkess specially trained as this.