Not bad advice but in the middle of the night when the weather is unpleasant (rain, snow, cold, etc.) I'm not so sure that all but the most dedicated owner will go out. Since poison can be concealed in a meat ball that 1" (2.5 cm) it would be easy to miss it, even with a flashlight.

A dog that's been poison proofed will shy away from food he finds on the ground. He's been trained that, even from a distance, they hurt.

Such people (who won't restrain their stock-aggressive dogs around livestock) are fools. I doubt that any of them will bother going to a trainer.

No you're not wrong. This is a result of product liability lawsuits. They don't want to be sued because some fool used the tool improperly on a dog with either of those problems. Using high level stim in those situations can result in making the problems worse. But using the tool on low levels and following my protocols for dealing with these animals has results in many of them being saved.

I think that a properly trained dog who's wearing an Ecollar could safely be off leash around livestock. My own dog is occasionally. Once trained with an Ecollar dogs become very reliable, and there's always the ability to remind the dog should he disregard his training.

In N. California there's a SAR worker with whom I argued several times about Ecollars on various SAR lists. She'd successfully trained and worked two SAR dogs with PP methods and said that she'd "never" need an Ecollar. She'd trained dozens of dogs of her team mates with those methods. Then when it was time for her 3rd dog she decided that since she was an "experienced" SAR trainer that she'd get one from a breeder known for his high drives to hunt and chase. She did. Only a few months later she discovered that her methods weren't working with this dog. She couldn't get him to stop barking.

Fortunately she wasn't too hard-headed to realize that it was time for a change. She contacted me and I recommended a bark collar. It worked and she went back to her methods for the rest of his work.

A few more months passed and she discovered that the dog loved to chase deer. Her methods also didn't work to stop that problem.

Again she contacted me and I got her an Ecollar and directions as to how to use it to "critter" the dog.

Last time we spoke the dog had made several finds of lost live people. She told me that on one search her dog walked up on a deer that had "frozen." (Freezing [holding very still] is a defense mechanism where the animal hopes that the threat won't see them). The dog got to within 2'-3' of the deer when it jumped up and ran. The dog stood still, watched the deer run off and then, without a command, went back to work.

Many people say that they can call their dog off a chase. But the problem with SAR dogs is that those chases often happen out of sight of the handler. The first indication that the handler gets that the dog is chasing something is when he doesn't recall, probably because he's out of earshot.

The chances of BOTH the training and the Ecollar breaking down at the same instant is very slim. One police dog that I trained didn't need an Ecollar correction for over two years of working the street.

As I stated earlier this is a product liability concern. There are many trainers who use Ecollars for these problems with complete success.

In this part of the world the term "quick fix" refers to something that's fast but not long lasting. It's something like wrapping a leaking car radiator hose with duct tape to get home so that a proper fix can be done later. It's often an "emergency" repair.

While Ecollars are very fast to get results they're not a "quick fix" as this term usually means. In fact Ecollar training usually lasts longer than other forms. Simon's OB, two years after he got his training, was better than that of the other dog in the family who regularly went to OB classes.

Thank you. I've had this discussion on many forums in the UK and this, without doubt, has been the best one. Those opposed to Ecollars have remained polite and professional, expressing their opinions without flaming or poor behavior. It's been very pleasant. The moderators are to be congratulated for their guidance and tolerance!

That's great. Every tool and every method has its advantage and disadvantages.

There are many disadvantages to Ecollars and I'm happy to point them out.

First of all, they're expensive. There's no debate on that. Some cost as much as $600US. Most are much more reasonably priced being down around $200US.

Second you have to remember to turn them on! Occasionally I've forgotten. Since my dogs all work reliably, and I can't tell from the dog's behavior that he's getting (or not getting) stimmed it just means we've had a session in avoidance training. When training a new dog it's obvious that it's not turned on because the dog isn't making any progress. There's no change in his behavior.

You have to remember to keep them charged. Recharging is easily accomplished by plugging them into the wall outlet over night every couple of days. Most are available with a car charger.

Every 3-5 years they have to have their batteries replaced. You can do this yourself but I recommend that you send them back to the manufacturer for this. In addition to replacing the batteries, they'll replace the seals and check the unit out on the test bench to make sure it's working properly.

I don't think that the Ecollar has a higher potential for misuse than any other tool and even if it is misused it can only cause pain. It can't cause physical injury. The same can't be said for every other tool.

I'll take that as a sign of progress.

Only problem is that around sheep for example, if the sheep are frightened (and some livestock are afraid of dogs in their field even if the dog is not doing anything) they can abort their lambs, so it's still not really advisable, ever, to have a dog off lead.

I guess if the dog is heeling it would be OK but, then, it may as well be on a lead anyway

i don't get why you would ever need to let your dog off the lead if it could hurt any1 or anything!!!!!!!!!!!

Not surprised you are confused Wysywig I think many of us are confused and have given up on this thread ...No Doogle is not a forum, in the post Clob is admitting Doogle is one of his many 'other selves' and he has cut and pasted the post from another forum to support himself

http://www.dogweb.co.uk/showpost.php...&postcount=271

Clob
I was Doogle….they blocked (suppresed) information I was trying to pass to her but I got some info through....almost all my info posts were deleted or blocked on that site, as I am sure you know.

Doogle - doogle Date 02.07.03 22:45 GMT
I noticed in your deleted post that someone mentioned BIPDT they sort of implied that was the organisation she belonged to, it stands for British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers Ltd, Stockport. It is a limited company registered at company house, registration number 3949096 and BIPDT is a trade mark name.

It is two PLC’s one is a security company and the other sells dog instructor courses, to buy a dog instructor course they expect you to have the basics, by basics they accept anyone who has had a pet dog of any kind and has done 6 weeks or so obedience course at some point in the dogs life (or late dog if you no longer have one).

You buy a 6 weeks course from them and at the end of it you can say you’re an approved member of the British Institute of Professional Dog Trainers and start a business influencing clients with the title, alternatively you can start your own Limited Liability company and give yourself a similar title for several hundred pounds less.

OK well I'll give up on that then, way too weird for me Thanks for explaining.

OK we've let this run for 30 pages now and I think it's time to call it a day. Everyone's had a chance to put their views across.

Maybe we'll revisit it again one day.

Thanks to everyone for taking part and extra thanks to those who did not let things get personal.