I think that the point is that E collars have been designed to shock and or cause pain , treats are not issued with instructions to throw under a bus, collars and leashes notes on how to hang your disobedeint dog
As for your comments about off topic .. what a bloomin cheek you hijacked the original thread and then manipulated this one to debate E collars a subject clearly close to your heart..

Wiziwig
And some people sell the collars too, so make money from that unfortunately.

Clob
Yes of course they do,over this past 2 years e-collars have become the most popular training aid there is.

In 2002 almost no one knew what an e- training collar was, some had heard of and were begining to use the static anti barks, others had boundary fences, only 850 of those were sold in financial year 2002.

By July last year 750,000 static electro pulse collars had been sold in total in UK by retailers trading within the UK, that figuer excludes imports from USA, which are almost certainly as many again, it also excludes imports from Europe but I have nevr followed that market so I have no idea.

By about Nov/Dec 2005 the % increase in sales and consequent use was averaging 60/70% on the previous year 2004, that comes from several dignificant sized retailers selling all types of remotes and that growth rate has maintained itself, as opposed to a blip, which all products are prone to from time to time.

In the year 2002 there 5 significant retailers operating in the UK, by June/July last year there just over 50 significant retailers operating in the UK, they have all expanded in size and sales, the largest expansion has been 2004-2005.

A major manufacturer is shortly opening a UK/European distribution warehouse in the S East,the first in the UK.

By 2000 the commercial monopoly of the pet dog training industry was almost exclusively the product known as 'Positive Training'.

So Wigiwig, why do you think, that in a free market economy the popularity and fastly increasing numbers of people succesfully using e-collars as a training aid is a bad thing for you personally or at all.

Almost invariably the reason people want to add one as an aid is because they have met someone who used/es one and it is those peoples dogs which clinch sale after sale, so what rational reason do you have to think it is unfortunate that in a free market economy people are making their own choices.

Do you by any chance think that us fellow Brits are bit to stupid to use them? Do you think we are just not intellegent enough to have one? Do you think we are all to stupid to know whats best for own dogs or is your reasoning
"I, the great Wiziwig, know whats best for that stranger and his/her unknown dog"
I would genuinly appreciate a sensible response.

I am all for healthy debate on any subject, but clob you don't seem interested in debating any subject. You just seem to dismiss whatever most of us say as rubbish. We also appear not to be in the minority because no one on here so far has agreed with you.
I can not ever imagine even thinking of using a shock collar in any circumstances. I have always managed to achieve a high level of control with my dogs by only ever using gentle means and see no reason why this can not be achieved by all, it takes consistency and persistance but it pays dividends. When I said I have never had a problem getting any of the dogs I have owned to do what I want when I want I most certainly included all levels of distraction.
What specifically is to be gained from the use of e collars?

Clod, are you sure you want a sensible reponse? I mean, really? I think you will just disagree and go off into aimiless quotes and arguments which I find tedious

:smt038 :smt038 :smt038

but isn't that what your'e saying you the great clob know better than all of us how best to train our dogs. Also think you are the one implying we are too thick to understand what it is you are trying to tell us, if that's not the case you are not making yourself at all clear.

There is really no need to use goading and baiting tactics, it doesn't illustrate whatever point it is you are trying to make, but rather makes you look petty.

For what it's worth - if I can assume you will bother to read this - these days people live very hectic lives, juggling jobs, children, relationships, family commitments etc. and it can be hard to find the time and patience to devote to training a dog.

We are all aware on DW what a huge commitment it is but when people's lives are directed by the extra hours of overtime required by the boss, or the new baby that comes along, or Junior's school play sometimes it is very hard to maintain that level of commitment and perservere in training the dog.

Furthermore we are less tolerant these days as a society wrt dogs - we don't want them to bark too much, defecate in the wrong places, appear aggressive towards people or other dogs, run around jumping up on people, etc. etc.

But if people don't have the time, patience or indeed the knowledge to devote to pure training they will tend to look for a quick, fast fix - one that will pay instant dividends and free up their time so that the next 12 walks don't involve 2 hours of heelwork or no pulling training. Instead they can get the walking chore ticked off with the minimum of fuss from the dog and rush back to make tea. I've seen people around here dragging their dogs around the block, barely communicating with them.

This isn't a criticism of anyone who leads an unavoidably stressed and busy life but an observation. People need to see quick, relatively hassle-free results and something like an electric collar appears to offer this whereas specific training - as we have all mentioned previously - involves a higher level of effort and input.

Leo
ok so i have to use a shock collar on my dog which will annoy them to get the focus on me?
but like i have said if you know my breed at all you will understand they are double coated so for the shock to reach the skin the level would have to be higher than a dog like yours being a dob ( or short coated breed).

Clob
Hi Leo, thanks for a sensible post, makes answering easy for once.

I don’t know the breed or much about them beyond seeing a couple close up talking to the owners for a short time and fondling them. The ones I have seen were very placid, calm and laid back.

No Leo, both contact points must touch the surface of the skin or the collar will not activate. They can only activate on skin, no other surface.

If you did use an e-collar with a dog like that you can use the long contact points (they have long and short) and if your dogs coats are very thick you would probably have to snip some hair off with scissors. Lou would know mote than me he’s dealt with over a thousand and must have come across hair like that.

I noticed in another post your dogs are or were therapy dogs, one of mine was in an unusual therapy dog situation in the late 1980’s, long before the benefits of modern e-collars was available.

He was nothing to do with PAT, I am not sure if PAT existed then, he was my dog, my training. All dogs were scrutinsed on a daily basis for quite a while in those hospitals

It was in one of the old psychiatric hospitals with a secure unit for the criminally insane, late 80's. He was allowed on several wards graduating to the more difficult units over about 9 months, including sometimes on a locked ward for short lengths of time, no more than 1/2 hour, most times less.

He was the only Dobe ever known to have worked in one of those hospitals and probably the only fully protection trained dog to work in both roles, each extreme of the character.

When I think of him I really regret that I was not able to give him and me the advantages of modern training with an e-collar, thank heavens for technological progress and all the advantages of modern training they have opened up for us all.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/H2.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/H2.jpg

Because they run off electricity from batteries and they emit an electronic stimulation. Since the level of that stim is adjustable it can be tailored to exactly what level the dog needs.

Can you tell us why you'd never use one? What if you got a dog that didn't respond to other methods? Would you put it to sleep rather than use an Ecollar?

Great question. I get many clients who have tried many methods, one after another, and they all failed. Many of these people were desperate to stop their dog's bad behavior, some near taking the dog to the pound or having him PTS. With all of those clients I used the Ecollar to train the dog. I've never come across a dog that didn't respond to it. the dogs don't suffer any of the horrors that you folks imagine. They're not in pain, they're not afraid, they're not cowering behind the sofa. They're happy and enjoy good relationships with their owners.

I'd suggest that you folks, especially those of you who don't have any experience with the tool, open your minds a bit to the possibility that what you think you know about Ecollars isn't all there is to it.

I know that many of you have used other methods to your complete satisfaction but your experience with a few dogs or even the experience of a few trainers with many dogs isn't the whole world. Some dogs don't respond well to only positive reinforcement training and that's a fact.

I have no idea who told you that using an Ecollar is an "easy, no effort way of getting a result" but it's not true. It is easier and faster and uses less effort than other methods but it still takes time and effort to get the training done.

It also gives a "good, strong bond of trust with your dog." This, of course, is based on using the tool properly.

I've always wondered how people can react as some members of this group have and instantly condemn something without ever having seen it used properly. I can certainly understand questions about how it's used and specifically what is done and I welcome such inquiries; if only to expand one's knowledge about dog training.

Actually that's EXACTLY what a dog feels, a tingling sensation, when an Ecollar is used properly. The most common response is that the dog sits and scratches as if a flea is biting him.

Not sure what this has to do with this conversation. Dogs don't decide what method or tool is to be used on them. It's the way of the world that we make those decisions for them. People who have had TENS units applied know that it's stim is adjustable. It can be turned up so it's quite painful or adjusted down so that it's not.

Not being patronizing at all. I asked because you said that dogs could be "trained to high level" and I wondered what your experience with this was. I wonder why many of you folks get your backs up when this topic is broached. No one is attacking you. Relax, take a breath and try responding to my question. If you've trained one pet to come when he's called your experience with dogs is vastly different than if you're a trainer with hundreds of dogs "under your belt."

I don't think that there are many dogs that weigh 400 pounds LOL, but I understand your point. I've walked some of the biggest most powerful dogs around on a loose lead. It's the first thing that I teach.

First of all you don't have to use a shock collar. No one needs one. But many dogs don't respond well to other methods so let's say your dog is like that and you decide to use one.

OK. I guess you could say that the dog is "annoyed" by the discomfort that the stim causes.

Sorry Leo but you have a misconception about the Ecollar and this statement shows it. A higher level of stim isn't necessary to get through the dog's coat, you just use longer contact points. In extreme cases I've had to use thinning shears to remove some of the dog's hair. There's also a device that's relatively new on the scene called SCG (Surface Contact Grid) that sits on top of the coat and still allow the stim to reach the dog's skin.

I don't think anyone has said this. Let me ask, can you name a tool used in training dogs that "can not be miss used by the owners?" Misuse isn't inherent in any tool. It's in the user.

[QUOTE=leo] yep its tob he goes into hospitals visiting ill kids.... without ever wearing a e collar i might add!

My police dog who caught and bit many a criminal also did this. He was trained with an Ecollar.

I'm not sure where this silliness is coming from. Who said anything about "zapping a dog to get him to pay attention?" that's not how the work is done and the "zap" is best described as a buzz or a tingle.

Ah good to see you in this discussion. In fact you're quite wrong. Most people here do not "understand well Ecollars." They have huge misconceptions about what the tool is and how it's used. That's easily seen and is to be expected in a country where modern use is almost never seen.

Ecollars were originally invented to stop bird dogs from chasing game such as skunks and deer. They did this by causing pain. They had one level, very high. But the modern version of the tool is adjustable and can be turned down so low that neither a dog nor a human can even feel it. Then it can be turned up until the dog first feels it. That's where my work is done.

This is a comment I've heard many times from many people. I have no problem with it. But often those folks happen to come across the right (wrong) dog for the methods that they've been using all along and they don't work. I've not found a dog that an Ecollar wasn't suited for and didn't work for.

That's great. But you too have a misconception about Ecollars. Used properly, they're quite gentle.

Quite simply some dogs don't respond to those so called "gentler methods." At least not in the face of high level distractions or if they're highly driven animals.

The training of dogs that don't respond to other methods.

It's not that it "appears to offer this" it's that it does offer this. I don't happen to think that there's anything inherently better in something because it "involves a higher level of effort and input." I think that as long as the results are the same or better, that faster is better.

darasa
I think that the point is that E collars have been designed to shock and or cause pain

Clob
Darasa, I have already posted one chapter of a text paper on the type of collar you are referring to, which were the origins of today’s collars. They had a completely different purpose and were not designed for the same use as a modern collar

– when we talk about (at least the more modern ones of us) talk of air travel we don’t think of an craft carrying 2 people in an open air cockpit, ready to fall apart at the first strong gust of wind whilst its flying along a beach – the Wright brothers flight.

– to add to the historical place of those collars (which you refer to almost 60 years on ) the German Vet who invented the civilian version of them invented them to reduce the damage done to his own hunting dogs necks by hard use of lead jerks, the dogs concerned were not hunting dogs that we ever had here.

– Just read back to the text paper I posted (and wrote) at the link below if cant be bothered doing that then you should not post here all your achieving is spreading your own Edwardian era ignorance like desease.

Taking into account that you are probably much younger than me I think that for your generation you very backwards in the acceptance the massive technological progress of the late 20th and 21st century.

I know lots of younger people and they are all for technological progress and love it all, I just see them as modern people, you just seem stuck in another century, can I ask, without intending to be offensive, are you from a poor background where modern radios, mobiles, satalite dishes, PC's & upgrades etc etc were not available?

Below is the European collar you are talking about.
Clob Posted Yesterday, 07:11 PM
http://www.dogweb.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37415&page